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Anonymous 10133

Let's try to have a civil debate thread. Post an opinion that you are willing to alter after hearing a reasonable argument for it or against it, or an opinion where you just don't understand the "other side" and would like to hear what someone who supports that position has to say.

Anonymous 10137

Slutty female and male behavior damage society.

Anonymous 10143

this is a good one. awaiting the debate.

Anonymous 10149


It destabilizes the family structures, which leads to more stressful environments for the next generation to grow up. It also promotes the spread of STDs, which are harmful for society for obvious reasons.

Not that I care how amorous others should be but just to give some starters for this debate.

I guess the strength of my arguments depends on whether that statement should be taken literally, or in "damages are prominent" sense.

Anonymous 10152

Related: polyamory is harmful, if not downright retarded. It almost always happens when one person in relationship is immature and ~unwilling to commit yet~ but wants all the benefits of long term relationship. They take advantage of their partner's feelings and abandonment issues so they can fuck around cause they can't keep it in their pants when they see the next shiney thing.
Last year I had the doubtful pleasure of experiencing 3 separate cases of people attempting polyamory and they were all trainwrecks.
The most surprising one was my ex ~bff for life~ who decided to open up her relationship with fiance (for whom she dropped her past bf and lived with) cause she met a cute guy who shared some of her quirky hipstery hobbies. First she used the excuse that "our relationship is strong and meaningful enough to sustain fucking around and having fun with other people and artists in bohema did it all the time, why limit yourself?".
Than she almost broke up with her fiance, than broke up for real and moved out, while still stringing the dude along, cause she doesn't know what she wants.
I have no idea what's going on in her life as she also decided to cut contact with me in favor of a new BFF.
(and no, I didn't shit on her decision to her relationship with fiance as she claimed he was ok with it. Really doubt it, as he was emotionally dependent on her).

If it wasn't clear, she has a habit of replacing people in her life when she meets someone better. She replaced her childhood friend with me (I wanted us to be friends together, but that didn't work out).

Sorry for the rant, 2017 was both wonderful and absolute crap.

Anonymous 10154


All true. I think it's hard to try to fight the idea female and male slutty behavior is bad because deep down everyone knows it's wrong and there are solid proof it's more damaging than helpful. What are you going to say against it? "I like it? It's my body so my rules"? Come on. Uhhh… that's not a real argument.

Anonymous 10155

Agreed too. They always end up in shite and because one or two partners are immature.

Ughhh send us things to argue about, cc.

Anonymous 10156

uwu but people are not meant to be monogamous, anon!!! Don't be such a prude!!!

Anonymous 10157

I'd rather be a prude than let stranger's crusty dick in my holes. Disgusting. I'm not very modern, I admit uwu

Anonymous 10158

Modern feminism is damaging women rather than empowering them.
It focuses too much in unimportant issues, or non issues instead of being what it once was supposed to be, which was uplifiting women and showing how strong we are.
I'd take my grandma's feminisim ideals over modern day feminisim any day of the week because regardless of how many years ago it happened it seems to be more progressive and focused compared to the modern version of it which is just shouting nonsensical blabber and making women appear like fragile creatures that can't take any kind of shit without breaking apart.

Also it's incredibly stupid how many bullshit (like actual bullshit) it tries to focus on while ignoring real issues.
Are women having their vaginas mutilated somewhere? are 7 years old getting raped and married to some old creep? Who cares! My videogame character shows a bit of a thigh! Males are sitting with legs apart to have a place for their balls! Fake statistics about pay! That's the issues i will try to put into the spotlight and show to the world!

Modern feminisim is basically trying to turn women into male stereotypes and grown coddled babies.

Anonymous 10161


I agree with this 100%. Good brain, anon.

Now give us something you believe in and is retarded, please.

Anonymous 10162

>Modern feminisim is basically trying to turn women into male stereotype

Old school feminism did the same. The stereotype of feminist wearing flannel and combat boots exist for a reason. 80's and 90's feminism was all about replacing men in almost everything. They even refused to use the word men in women.

Anonymous 10164

61B7bDr1 nL._SX331…

I don't know enough about first wave feminism or the original women's movement of the early 1960's to comment on it, but by the 70's second wave feminism had already been subverted by the sexual revolution. A good book to read about this topic is pic related, it's an autobiographical memoir of a woman who was a journalist for Cosmo magazine at the time who was under pressure from males higher up in the journalism field like Larry Lader to promote sexual gratification at all costs as a "right" in her writings.

Anonymous 10165

I would like to request that terms be defined. "Modern feminism" could refer to a wide variety of feminisms that have existed and evolved from earlier feminist movements.

And a counterpoint would be that there are still feminists are that concerned with more serious issues that anon considers as genuinely worth devoting attention and energy towards (such as fgm, child marriage, marital rape), but the problem that is not inherent within feminist movements itself is the tendency for media outlets and people to fixate on surface or trivial problems as "flavor of the month" outrage.
I think a lot of the intent of discussions are trying to highlight how sex and gender inequality has pervaded so much of how people understand and navigate the world, but become boiled down to "wow feminists are just nitpicky while not focusing on real issues."

So agree about bad public image of feminism, disagree about how it is damaging overall.

Anonymous 10166



Anonymous 10184

Can we keep the strawman/shitposting away from this thread, please? I agree with you but I don't think this is the place, and the thread is about "opinions you're WILLING to change if presented to reasonable arguments". Antagonizing those of a different opinion isn't very conductive to good discussion and changing one's mind. Thanks :)

I'm not sure what exactly that anon was referring to but I think some current feminism is too victimizing (is that a word?) and that's really, really damaging.

All the talking about not feeling safe around men, "fearing men every day", all the talk about the fear and insecurity… you know, I get it, I'm a woman, but just complaining about it is just sad and a little pathetic. What is even the point of it?

We need to encourage women, not just remind them every day of what a shit place the world is.

I'm yet to see a good argument against it. We already practice it to a great extent, too. Be more specific, anon.

Anonymous 10185

Severly depressed and mentally ill people should have an access to a safe and painless suicide method.

Anonymous 10192

images (2).jpeg

And I agree with this too. You really are my people.

Anonymous 10194

>>We need to encourage women, not just remind them every day of what a shit place the world is.

You see, that's a problem here. It's deep in some girls heads that they're inferior solely for being female, and no matter the mental gymnastics we do together, they won't change their minds. When I ask about the situation, yes, it's hard, but completely solvable. It's not like they're from the middle East and couldn't do basic things. It pains me when I see women suffering because they think men have it better when in 99% of cases that's complete BS, and they don't, or things are the same no matter your gender. Empowering women isn't about making them better than men, but equal, giving them the same Z, X, and a Y that men already have – and women do too, they're just blind to it because the men in their lives are shitheads or the places they frequent online are full of women haters.

Anonymous 10219


I know something that always makes debate happens: uncut and cut penises. Should circumcision be banned if the family in question doesn't do it for religious reasons?

Start, CC!

Anonymous 10228

Religion is not above rule of law. If you ban male genital mutilation (like they did with female) then there shouldn't be any loopholes.

Anonymous 10231

But fighting religious issues is WAY more complicated whereas it's simpler to ban circumcision on Christian babies.

Anonymous 10301

Eugenics is a multifacted issue but if you're just talking about compulsory sterilization, I'm against that because it violates the bodily autonomy of an innocent person. I also don't trust the state to be able to effectively carry forced sterilization initiatives out without abusing that power.

Anonymous 10309

>It's deep in some girls heads that they're inferior solely for being female
This is me

>they won't change their minds

I'm trying to. What do you suggest I do besides not going on toxic websites and let time do its thing?

Anonymous 10332

I'm the person who posted that. I am glad you're trying to change and avoiding toxic websites. Try surrounding yourself with good females, people who you admire and would like to become similar to. If you don't have any, we have a thread for interesting women somewhere around here (it's on /b/, I think). But yeah, try to hang out with strong, interesting women. Even make a list of the traits they have and that you'd really like to develop so you can see for yourself that women are not inferior, and that they can have amazing qualities. The people who say that to you are SAD and/or ANGRY, thus their opinion is invalid.
Women are not inferior by any means and everything I said in my first post still stands. But yeah, time will definitely help.

Anonymous 10356

people should be ashamed of having violent kinks (rape, vore, bloodplay etc) whether you act on them through bdsm or not

Anonymous 10357

If you don't act on them nobody is harmed so there is no shame to have.

Anonymous 10358

isnt having the urge to harm someone and get off on it something to be ashamed of in and of itself, though?

Anonymous 10359

I agree. It shows you have something wrong in the head, whether you do it or not.

Anonymous 10360

It is less about a person and more about a concept. Getting off to concepts isn't shameful.

Anonymous 10361

Social media produces narcissism

Anonymous 10362


maybe you should just learn how to deal with the shame you feel for deriving pleasure from hurting people. also this;

>It is less about a person and more about a concept.

is the new dumbest thing i've ever heard. it's really fascinating that for narcissists like this guy, it's not his desire for beating women that's the problem, it's everyone else that has a problem with it that is the problem, because they are the ones MAKING him feel shame. Not only do people have to put up with your sexual dysfunction, but then they have to coddle you afterward to make sure you don't feel bad about what you jerk off too? Jesus Christ dude, you're a human black hole

Anonymous 10363

this, honestly. i have a lot of bizarre kinks & situations i get off to that would make me sick if a real living person was involved ; but since they're. nothing more than ideas, there is no issue.

i also feel life is too short and hard to be ashamed by your fantasies. >>10356

Anonymous 10364


counter argument: social media exists and is popular because we were narcissists already.

Anonymous 10368

I agree with this. It just makes it easier for narcs and egomaniacs get their daily applause and "love"

Anonymous 10370

>new dumbest thing i've ever heard
>narcissists like this guy
>your sexual dysfunction
>Jesus Christ dude, you're a human black hole

Congratulations, your irrational and uncontrolled butthurt successfully placed yourself at the very bottom of Graham's hierarchy of argument.

Anonymous 10374


yeah i clicked on this thread from the front page and didn't read the OP about debating, figured it was a thread about kink. my bad, i'll take the kinkshame elsewhere, enjoy your triangle.

Anonymous 10380

It's a borderline sociopathic urge. If you can't shame someone for being sexually aroused at thought of severely harming someone else, what can you shame people for nowadays?

Anonymous 10381


agreed, but the narcissistic supply is a secondary component. first and foremost, it's a place to cultivate a brand out of your identity.

a little off topic, but the thing that melts my brain about it is that there is no way to not participate in it. I can hear your thought already, yes, you can opt out, but that in itself is a statement about the kind of person that you are.

Anonymous 10382

Stop that, sister. Let's go to /nsfw/ and have some laughs together later. Kinkshaming is my kink too. Sage because I don't wanna derail, sorry.

Anonymous 10384


That sounds lovely, it's a date ;)

sage and apologies for derailing

Anonymous 10490

If you are talking about legal assisted suicide offered in a hospital or other institutional environment by a healthcare professional, I disagree because of the potential for abuse of the system. Assisted suicide for mental illness has been legal in the Netherlands and Belgium since 2002, here are a few cases where doctors were reprimanded for their behavior but found clear of any legal wrongdoing:

A woman with dementia who had said "I don't want to die" days before being euthanized had to be restrained by her family because she fought the doctor to not be killed.


A woman in her 20s was euthanized because doctors deemed that her post-traumatic stress following sexual abuse was “hopeless," despite improvements in the woman's psychological condition after therapy.


Other high-profile assisted suicide cases in the Netherlands and Belgium include a woman who was euthanized because of severe tinnitus, a 41-year-old man suffering from alcoholism, a pending case of a 39-year-old man who wants to be euthanized because he cannot accept his homosexual tendencies, a woman who was euthanized after sexual “transition” surgery failed to correct her gender-identity disorder, and two identical twin brothers in their 40s who chose death because they were told they had a condition that would make them go blind.

I am the same anon as >>10301 and my reasons for opposing eugenics and assisted suicide for mental illness are much the same, because there is potential for abusing innocent people and because I don't trust the state with that kind of power over people's lives.

Anonymous 10641

Mine: I believe that a state should have some control over birth rates. As in, people should need something akin to a driver's license to have a kid, there should be laws and evaluations to assess whether someone is fit to be a parent, and if they're deemed unfit, they shouldn't be allowed to procreate.

I never understood why this view is so offensive to others, actually, so I'd like to hear some actual arguments. You don't just walk into an orphanage and walk away with a kid no questions asked, so I don't see how or why you should be able to build your own to possibly abuse and mistreat either. Better to keep people in bad situations from putting another kid in the world than to abort or leave them to foster care. Another point is that if a child is abandoned the state has to pay to keep them alive and cared for, it is a burden on others, getting pregnant and popping out a baby isn't something consequence-free and shouldn't be taken as lightly as it is.

I can see how this would be wrong if we're talking mandatory birth control, and I can see the difficulties in enforcing such law, but not how it's morally wrong.

It's genital mutilation. If you squint really hard and ignore the harm it does, you can at best pretend it's plastic surgery. It's not common practice in my country so I don't know how it works in america, though, but I do think it should be banned everywhere.

What's your take on those kinks as a result of abuse? I can trace back most of mine to situations when I was abused and, rationally, it seems like a coping mechanism to deal with the pain (making an unpleasant thing pleasant and appealing). I'm not sure how to feel about this yet.

Anonymous 10653

i dont think its abnormal to develop weird kinks as a result of abuse, but its not a healthy way to cope and instead of just saying 'oh i guess this is my sex life now' people should really work on themselves so that they dont have to resort to stuff like that

Anonymous 10659

The genetic "idiot"-quote among may be geneticly higher. But blacks who have normal IQs shouldnt be botherd with /pol-tier IQ maps

Anonymous 10660

*among blacks

Anonymous 10662

I'm not disagreeing with you because I don't really have a formed opinion on what you said about the state having control over birth rates. But what would the state do if an "unfit" person got pregnant? Force them to get an abortion?

I think the only argument that can be used against what you said is that it's very cruel to tell a person they don't have the right to use their reproductive system in the way they want since you own your body. Maybe stricter laws regarding good parenting would be better. There's also the fact the state isn't always right, and blindly trusting the government is silly.

Also I think you mentioned having a driver's license because it's probably hard to get away with one from where you are, but plenty of people don't need to have one or drive cars because public transport is available.

Anonymous 10663

Without* one

Anonymous 10664

>I believe that a state should have some control over birth rates. As in, people should need something akin to a driver's license to have a kid.

I agree with you 100% but I know this will never likely happen in our lifetimes. Too many people are afraid this is a communist notion and an attack on the lower class, like we will wind up having a crisis similar to China's one child policy. It's far too much in recent memory to make any meaningful progress insofar as enforcing restriction on births.

What might work though? Tax incentives.
Why not incentivize young, uneducated people by offering things like credits, baby boxes (see Finland), and basically money for attending sex education courses, using birth control, or taking a parenting class?
The ignorant and poor want money. At least if they're getting money through these means there's a chance we could change them for the better, so they can rethink having a baby while unemployed or hitting their children just because they behave like children.

The United States has it all backwards. We shouldn't be charging for educational courses, birth control, and abortion. We shouldn't be allowing old school bigots in politics dictate what's best to curb welfare and unplanned pregnancies when their methods are demonstrably ineffective.
We shouldn't reward poor decisions by throwing food stamps and subsidized resources at the people who made them when we don't even know if they're educated enough to be utilizing these things or even spending the welfare on their own children.

My main problem with modern feminism is that it's been bastardized in such a way that the adverse reactions men have to it are causing pushback on issues relating to harrassment and female expectations.
IMO–it's made men even more entitled to what women are "supposed" to be doing now that the playing field is allegedly more "equal."
I'm going to focus more on domestic expectations.

I feel like feminism forgot about women like me because we embraced certain gender roles, like being able to cook and clean for the sake of feeding ourselves and living in nice spaces. I hoped there would be a movement within feminism encouraging men to become better household partners. So not just being involved daddies to their children and getting asspats for that. Or being able to recognize toxic masculinity and embracing their sensitive sides.
I'm talking about the expectations truly being equal.
Sadly, these discussions are absent in mainstream feminism.

Currently, not only am I expected to be able to cook well and clean religiously (you know, show domestication), I MUST also work 40 hours a week. So I go to my 9 hour shift and I'm expected to come home and put in the unpaid labor of cooking and cleaning without bemoaning it. And heaven forbid if I'd have children on top of that.

As nice as some men I've met are, and the one I'm currently in a relationship with, I have never seen them voluntarily cook and clean regularly as if the labor was equal.
Men often must be asked to do domestic chores, or, if they do it it's half-assed. They don't know how to do many things. This is how many men are raised, they are raised without domestication still with the expectation that they will either live a "bachelor" life or find a woman to cover these things for them.

And yet, nu-men expect bills to be split down the middle with their women as if everything's equal. Requiring women to work full time, and they will absolutely bemoan their women if they only work part time or take care of tertiary bills only.

Obviously this isn't the only problem with mainstream feminism, but this is an issue that effects me greatly.

Anonymous 10675

>But what would the state do if an "unfit" person got pregnant? Force them to get an abortion?
This is what happens in China and it's a human rights travesty.


Positive incentives like >>10664 mentioned may be effective, but there is no way for the government to ethically enforce restricting people from having babies.

Anonymous 10676

Oh and to add on to this,

>I can see the difficulties in enforcing such law, but not how it's morally wrong.

If something only works in theory but not in practice, then it's not a good theory.

Anonymous 10685

Maybe but IQ isn't the be-all-end-all way to measure intelligence. There are lots of reasons why someone would perform poorly on an IQ test, like being hungry, being stressed/upset/angry because of a situation at home, not getting the love and nurture they need to develop their intelligence, etc. Something like 77% of African American births are to single moms, as far as the nature-vs-nurture argument goes that automatically puts a huge population of black people at a big disadvantage to kids who are growing up in loving two-parent households. And it doesn't hurt as bad to hear a total stranger saying something rude about your intelligence it's still not a very kind thing for someone to do.

Anonymous 10710

The underlying cause is irrelevant. Statistics are statistics. There's nothing to be offended about it. It just says how things were at the time of the measurement.
When someone gets angry at a graph it just shows insecurity. We are individuals, the group is always secondary. Everybody is the forger of his destiny.

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