Jeremy Lybarger An…
Anti-pornography Anonymous 58790
Anyone here anti-pornography/anti sex work? Been learning about trafficking in the porn industry lately and it's shocking that mainstream feminism continues to excuse porn in the name of 'sex-positivity'. Then of course being disgusted by this means you get called a 'SWERF' on twitter.
Sex is different for like 90% of people though.Majority of prostitutes present PTSD symptoms and want to get out of it,it's really not a normal industry.
>The most popular porn stars are not people who were trafficked.
Yeah but pornhub for example is full of it,and those porn stars are still harmed by the industry and sometimes raped on camera,just look at the girlsdoporn thing.There are a lot of testimonies about how you can be forced to go further or receive no pay.
I also think surrogacy,organ seliing or anything to do with selling bodily functions like these as an industry are abhorrent even if a minority likes it.
>I really don't think there is a significant different between someone paying for sex and paying for a massage
Tissue therapy is a physical therapy modality. Choking on a dick because your parents didn't love you enough is bad for both you and your rapist, even if he doesn't realize it.
also 'popular porn stars' don't represent porn actresses as a whole
I was attacked on twitter simply for calling myself a radfem despite making it very clear I'm trans inclusive. I fully don't get it
>>58790>Anyone here anti-pornography/anti sex work?
Yes but that lady there… mmm
Yeah,just like how high-end escorts who can leave at any time and have support or a girl with a onlyfans account dont represent the majority of sex workers.It's beautiful on paper to take a detached view of "do what you want with your body,sex is like any other activity" but you can't ignore how it works in real life and how many people suffer for it, be it traficking,having only this option,feeling trapped,suffering violence,having to take drugs to get through the day,being disowned.
If we lived in a utopia where everyone gets basic income and there is no traficking i would be for legalization and such but it's just not reality.I think treating the prostitutes as criminals is wrong and should change but am against legalizing the entire thing.
what's wrong with andrea? ):
Even ignoring the trafficking, many women are financially coerced into the sex industry or/and had been abused in their childhood so this becomes a way for them to relive their cycle of trauma or they end up in this position because they were taught it's all they're good for. Not to mention the psychological harm being objectified on day to day basis can do to a woman. Doesn't exactly compare to working in McDonalds
>>58803>She was a good Jewish girl in a pro-Israel home: "And all of my remaining family are, I would say, Zionist zealots." She remains a supporter of Israel's right to exist, of the Jewish right to have their own state and the Jewish right to fight back against those who tried and still try to kill them; just as she thinks that women have the right to fight back, even kill, the men who have abused them. "I've been a pacifist all of my life, currently lapsed, and maybe before I die I'll go back to my religion, which is pacifism," she said.
I'm not pro-Israel.
I'm not even surprised. I knew the moment I saw her unpleasant form and face
None of it is normal Shekelberg
> If you get drunk and have sex with strangers it's considered a normal part of maturing.
Not that anon but I can't agree with this. Also:
>This was at one of the best universities in my country so they arguably had better backgrounds than the average person.
Being in a better financial situation doesn't mean that amongs those rich kids there couldn't be any emotional unestable guy, even rapists. I belive that this is a prejudice that many people hold against the lower classes, they believe they are more uneducated in that aspect whereas the hight classes have less violent/aggressive/maniac men. Am I missing something?
>Whether you agree or not, it is definitely normalised in western society for women (and men) to have a lot of sex with people they don't know very well when they're young.
Still can't agree. In my country we watched Friends and Sex and the City and I highly doubt any of us would agree that surrogacy, circumcision, breast implants, drag culture, etc… are good things or things we aspired too. And the same goes for ''sleeping with strangers''. I know my mother and some of my aunts had several boyfriends before marriage, but they didn't make one-night stands (and if they did they didn't tell anyone besides their girl firends back then), they dated formally for some weeks or maybe months. Slut shaming boys and girls was a pretty big thing back then (talking about late 80s and 90s). Nowdays some people have open relationships and probably more one-night stands but I still couldn't say it's ''normalised'' outside of the view of the specific group of young people that do it. The rest of us, young or not, are quite judgemental. Maybe in the USA it's different, you guys had a sexual revolution is the 60s (if I'm not mistaken) whereas in some places of Europe there was communism and other dictatorships.
>I was talking about the idea that women who have sex with randos have experienced sexual abuse as a child. In hindsight, the point was irrelevant because I don't know anyone who admitted to being paid for sex.
>>This was at one of the best universities in my country so they arguably had better backgrounds than the average person.
Then I didn't understand this, so you were talking about the girls in this sentence? Maybe sexual abuse wasn't the case for those girls in your college that slept with random dudes, maybe they sort of liberated from oppressive parents that didn't allow them to bring their bfs home. I don't know. I'm interested if you want to explain.
It's 2020 onlyfans and caming are 99% of sex work.
>Trafficking and violence are illegal and are mainly a part of the trade, because the trade itself is illegal. It's the kind of circular argument people make against drugs for fueling criminality.
Nope.The drug industry can be made legal with little side effects because drugs can be mass produced and stored anywhere.But in prostitution,your product is a human being,and i guarantee you there will be more demand than women willing to sell their body.When this happens,traficking is the solution and the way to make money.
If you want to draw a parallel draw it to agriculture or textile industry,both fully legalized and regulated but surprise surprise:Still huge amounts of traficking and slavery going on even in big countries.
>I don't think I've genuinely enjoyed any job I've ever had. It's an intersection between what I'm willing to do, how much money I want and how much money someone will pay me. If you have the basic necessary tools for sex work, there are a myriad of other jobs you could do with no other qualification. Most of them won't pay as well.
What do men in those situations do? Noone is going to pay to fuck them
The men get other jobs,and the women should be able to,most still want to get out of prostitution,so there could be an effort to help them find a job.
You know it's not like any other job because would you be willing to make a burguer for your father?No problem right,just your job.But you wouldn't be willing to prostitute yourself to him.And if a woman is unemployed and meets the "criteria" for working in a brothel,is it cool to force her to go?No?Because it's not just a job,it's something extremely intimate for most humans.The rates of PTSD, mental illness and drug use among them don't lie.
>Some women do it because it's easy work and they get a lot of money for it. Both of our arguments are specious but mine is the more parsimonious.
Of course some do,but the majority don't.So enacting laws to make these women and trafickers be able to get easy money but forget about the ones that want out makes no sense.
>I've just never really understood it. If you get drunk and have sex with strangers it's considered a normal part of maturing.
They have sex presumably once a night,with someone they find attractive and worth pursuing,and had no financial pressure weighing on their decision and consent.Very different of fucking multiple disgusting,violent men every day and having no way to say no because you need to make rent.
>If the same girl does that but takes money for it, it's a pathology.
Would you say a woman who gets pregnant back to back every year her whole life to make money could be ill or being pressured by either money or others?
Because i would be fucking worried,even if the majority of women organically want to be pregnant someday,doing so from strangers and in exchange for money changes the whole dynamic and opens up the market for women in other countries to be used as a womb.I'm sure some like being pregnant so damn much they don't mind but the majority do it out of necessity and would rather not.Same thing with sex work.
thats because mainstream (liberal) feminism is a meme, anyone who excuses it under the guise of "choice" doesn't know what they're talking about
i'm bad at arguing/talking in general but the websites below explain the issues with porn and its connection to sex traffickinghttps://exoduscry.com/https://traffickinghub.com/>>58795
it's unfortunate that most people think radfem = terf, especially since radfem authors like monique wittig exist
I aways found modern feminism so weird.
When i began talking to feminists 15 years or so ago there was a lot of discussion on why we do certain things or why we act in a way. Never any blaming, nor saying women were aways victims, just honest discussion about how our enviroment influences our choices and how those choices can have an impact on women as a whole.
But nowadays it seems so chewed for easier consumption. Like no, don't stop to think about why you shave your legs. It doesn't matter that you were conditioned to do it and may be harassed if you don't, you like it and that's final. Same goes for lipstick, long hair, being a housewife, being submissive, and sex work.
Not that any of it is wrong but i think women should be encouraged more to reflect on why they do certain things that are not expected of males. If sex work was that empowering, men would dominate the industry, but it just feels like another thing that is too bothersome and non politically correct to question, so it gets rebranded as a choice many don't really make, just like shaving and not wearing makeup.
It feels like the movement constantly tries to move away from the men hating, fat, ugly prude feminist stereotype for something more palatable for men. it feels really weird to see this progression.
I really hate the term "sex workers" cause it groups women who have to do prostitution to survive alongside middle class girls who have an only fans for extra money.
I used to be very pro-prostitution thinking of it as a way for women to be "empowered" and all that shit. What really changed my view was examining it from the "lowest" rungs of prostitution, people who do it just to get enough money to survive. Most prostitutes in poverty don't really want to have sex with their clients, but if it's a choice between sex and going homeless/hungry they'll choose sex. At that point, can you really say the sex was consentual? When a woman only agrees to have sex because she's being threatened with violence/blackmail we all know it's rape, it's the same case when a woman only has sex under threat of homelessness.
In an ideal world where everyone had enough money to survive comfortably, and prostitution really was
an empowering thing women could do to earn extra money, I would have no problems with that. But until we enter a post-poverty world then yeah, I'm gonna hold that prostitution is shit.
>>58859>it's unfortunate that most people think radfem = terf
No, it's unfortunate that people think terfs are bad. Trans identity is rooted in pornography and trans "feminists" are trafficking's most aggressive defenders. It's not possible to oppose sexual exploitation without sending them into a dickrage, no matter how polite you are about their pronouns. So why be polite?
> easy work
well you're absolutely deluded if you genuinely think that. And yes, getting drunk and having crappy sex with strangers shouldn't really be celebrated but that's a whole new ball game to putting a price on consent. When you have drunk sex with a stranger you're both just horny and drunk. When you do porn etc it because your profession to be objectified
that's a ridiculous claim. just because those things have gotten popular does not mean it takes up anywhere near 99% of sex work lol. There's just more of it
>Human bodies are a product or part of the operating machinery of most industries. If agriculture and textiles also contain "huge amounts of trafficking and slavery", what makes the sex industry inherently evil?
Rape??Slavery is already evil and traumatizing,but now add being raped daily multiple times on top of it.Any industry around selling bodies ends up evil,it's not that the act of selling yourself or doing something is,it's the industry aspect.Just like there isn't anything wrong at all with farming or sewing but you have to be stupid to believe most immigrants and traficked people in a situation akin to slavery are doing it out of their own will with no threat of homelesness or hunger behind,same with believing most women enjoy fucking strange men all day to make rent.
>There isn't a single prostitute who doesn't match the basic requirements of a waitress.
And how many available waitressing jobs are there?How many of those jobs would take a ugly,meth-head looking woman?How many would take a woman with a disability or speech impediment?How many allow her to leave her children with coworkers or make enough to feed them?
>To me, it looks like women have access to a low barrier but high paying career than men cannot access.
High paying CAREER,for real??But ok,in my corner of the world men have access to construction and security work,literally just need to be a man to get into it,two of the biggest fields that employ people and women make a minuscule parcel of it.You would be ridiculed out of the building if you asked for a job at either of these because women are weak and non-threatening,even if some of the guys working look like twigs.These are the two big legal ones,but the drug trade also employs a lot of poor guys.Women can't enter it as a guard or traficker so what is left is prostitution or being a live-in maid,starting mainly at the age most boys set to work,around 13.
>Personally, I imagine that if you removed the criminal element and social stigma of sex work,you'd have a lot more women doing it. There are so many soft-entries to sex work these days (onlyfans, Seeking arrangements, twitch streaming, Instagram "influencer") and they are all booming. Women are commodifying themselves in every way they can.
Yes they are,because they have to.Do you truly not see an issue with women having to sell their bodies to survive?Look how many mothers and disabled women are now selling nudes and camming because there is no other employment choice that fits their needs.
>I wouldn't want to give my dad a massage (if I were a massage therapist), examine his prostate (if I were a medical practitioner), wipe his ass (if I were the care industry) or strip for him (if I were a stripper).
>I'm a trained accountant and I've refused to do accounting work for family on numerous occasions because I generally think mixing business with family has so many ways to go wrong. My willingness to work for my dad is not a marker of whether a job should be legal.
It's not about you personally.But think about the examples you gave.It's normal to give a family member a massage,to care for them if you are a doctor,or to clean them if you are their main carer.Most people would not bat an eye if you said you help your dad with accounting.But when you say you strip or had sex with a family member,it's wrong,because sex is not like any other activity for 99% of people and never will be.
>My willingness to work for my dad is not a marker of whether a job should be legal.
I'm not arguing for that.What i meant to say is that sex is inherently a different activity,with it's own set of rules and feelings attached,and you cannot treat it like just flipping burguers.You have to respect that for most it is something personal and intimate that will not be just a skill to be traded if they have a choice.
>Llots of jobs involve doing things that most people wouldn't want to do. I don't know what the social security system is like in your country but in mine concessions are made on religious or conscientious grounds. Most people would agree that sex work should be treated similarly.
Why would it be treated differently?If you make laws on sex work being like any other job under the sun,you cannot suddenly go and say "but you can refuse" when you would not be able to refuse a job as receptionist or cleaner.
>I think anyone who is willing to do it should be able to.
I'm not denying that,i don't think prostitutes themselves should be treated like criminals and i am fine with sex work in theory if that's what you want,but you can't just ignore all the coercion and crushing financial pressure that mess with that choice.And messing with choice and consent when it comes to sex is dangerous because you get into rape grounds.
>You're saying "it's different because it's different". You have a yuck reaction to it, which is fine but shouldn't be basis for laws (even though it is).
But it is already basis for laws.If sex was not inherently different,rape would not be considered as serious and not be punished as harshly.If someone robs and hits me in the face,they get one sentence,if they rob and touch me in a sexual way they get another.
Rape or even just sexual assault have a way of traumatizing victims in a special,serious way.Many never recover,and are not the same after.Being robbed or hit for example may leave you feeling paranoid and scared for some time,but when you are violated in a sexual manner most people do not recover as easily.
It's different even if we can't explain why having someone touch you there or enter you a few times is so damn more dehumanizing and traumatizing,it just is for most people.
>Are they at higher rates than the general population?
Yes!A study done on sydney sex workers found that about half have ptsd, against about 15% iirc for soldiers and police officers.Normal population is a bit lower.
>Anecdotal but I know of one girl who "worked" as a sugar baby through university. She bought a house after graduation and is now "in a relationship" with an older man who basically funds her lifestyle. She's unlikely to show up on these stats, but Seeking Arrangements is full of girls like her.
I'm aware that some girls just want the money even while having other options,i don't think she should be treated as a criminal.
>I'd argue that part of the reason for mental illness and drug addiction is the low barrier to entry. You can be a toothless drug addict and men will still pay you for sex, apparenlty. You might have understandable struggles with holding down a more "normal" job. I'd agree that helping this person not be a toothless drug addict is better but I don't know if them dying on the street is better than taking money for sex. We're talking extremes here though.
Honestly,not that extreme unfortunately :( Most of the street prostitutes around here look like walking corpses already.I see your point,but legalizing and saying it's their choice to further traumatize themselves for drugs is not where it's at.When it's leaglized,if she says it's fine,there's not much social workers can do.
>Is that true?
Yea.80 up to 90% depending on the study.
>What are you calling a lot of money?
Around here?High end escorts can make around 15x the minimum wage.It's pretty easy money for not a lot of effort and in the case of high end,educated escorts not much danger.
>Sex is considered cheap by tourists, but for a sex worker can travel from her village, spend a month in a large city fucking tourists and fund her whole family for a while before she needs to go back. Starbucks won't do that and the girls who work there are usually students on their way to a career that pays better but requires a lot more upfront investment.
And i see issue with that.It's already a meme to go to thailand and get a child prostitute,but no girl should need to do that in order to help family and survive.The girls who have the money for the investment and are on their way to better education don't do it,but the poorer ones have to.Same thing happens here.I was lucky my parents worked their asses off to keep me from having to go into prostitution or my brothers from having to go into drugs and crime.Some of our peers were not so lucky.
>In regards to money, I can do a simple financial analysis on adultwork.com. You can verify for yourself. The "lower end" prostitutes charge 50 for 30 minutes. let's say they work 5 days a week and have sex with 3 men a day. That's £3k per month (presumably untaxed). On slightly more than that a month (post tax), I live a very comfortable lifestyle but I required 3 years of university, good grades and years of professional experience and development. My salary is significantly higher than the average for my country. This is for the lower end prostitute, doing less than 2 hours of work per day.
If you think the average street worker is putting their income on such sites you are really out of touch.Around here it's more 5 to 10 dollars per hour for lower end.They earn a bit more than minimum wage and a college degree will put you above that.
>This is such a reach though. Are you mean and violent to service providers? Do you think the only thing keeping men polite to their hairdresser is the threat of police involvement?
Oh god… do you really think all clients will just say accept a girl who says no?When men pay,they expect the service,and you are an object to them.I'm sure there are plenty of normal ones who are respectful but the fact that high end prostitutes filter and pick clients and have blacklists should be a clue that yes,often men get violent when they feel they have bought the right to have sex with a woman.
If you ever worked retail or any customer facing job,you will know that some people feel above you and entitled to you just because they're paying.That's for a normal ass job that has a manager,police and general public looking out for you,but you still get humiliated,threatened and treated like trash.It's not rare.But when prostitutes get such entitled people as clients,what happens is rape,around 80% of prostitutes have been raped at some point.
>Pregnancy isn't the same.
I don't see how.It can be considered just an activity using their body for some,even with risks,just like sex work.
I'm kind of tired of discussing this to be honest.It's a heavy subject for me and makes me feel bad the rest of the day,so i'm stopping here.You don't have to answer or anything.I respect how you think,i just think our realities are different and it's a complicated issue.
>Those who haven't had sex are often still willing to have uncomitted sex.
Damn, so those desperate guys from 4chan aren't exaggerating at all.
>Out of curiosity, what country are you from?
sex is different. that's why rape is incredibly traumatic
Things like only fans, Instagram and twitch are easy to get into and don't have any negative repercussions so of course they're going to be the majority of sex work. Escorting is the least popular form of sex work.>>58892>starting mainly at the age most boys set to work,around 13.
That violates child labour laws and the vast majority of civilized countries. Where the hell do you live that construction jobs ae more common than fast food and office jobs? The vast majority of kids will work at somewhere like McDonald's making minimum wage until they graduate college. I've never heard of a prostitute charging less than three figures an hour.
>>58933>that's why rape is incredibly traumatic
If sex work is work, rape is just nonpayment for services rendered. If a man is taken to court for committing rape, it's reasonable for him to pay a cash settlement in step with what his victim would charge based on her age, appearance, and location. A critical judge could set that price as low as a few dollars.
The level of trauma is not really comparable.
I live in a dangerous part of town, me and my two other female friends who were sexually assaulted were also robbed, multiple times, one of them had her house robbed with a guy threatening everyone with a gun.
Sure, there is some trauma, but the consensus is that the sexual assaults fucked us up way more and still do in some ways even when its been years.
>being a drug test subject or platelet donor is work, but forcibly taking someone's blood or injecting them with unknown chemicals is easily assault
Ooh, someone's not familiar with the history of medicine!
>>58951>Things like only fans, Instagram and twitch are easy to get into and don't have any negative repercussions so of course they're going to be the majority of sex work.
Not at all.
>I've never heard of a prostitute charging less than three figures an hour.
Ever heard of crack whores?
I have literally no idea where to find a crack whore in my country. I know seeking arrangements where men can pay a significant amount to fuck young, university-educated women. I know the major prostitution directory which is almost all that is discussed in prostitution forums for my country.
50 for half an hour is the lowest "price" you'll see on this site (for women who are not the most desireable).
I don't think crack whites are as abundant or as accessible.