What are your thoughs on PUA and why men are so sneaky? Anonymous 11642
They are digusting and make me feel dirty only thinking about it.
Are there really other women out there who fall for this shit? And man who are in need to pay for this kind of stuff?
Makes me ashamed to be a women/makes me want to become a lesbian. I'm I the only one who feels this way?
They are still around tho
PUA's are the insecure of the insecure. Real pencil neck types. Generally and simply speaking. Instead of developing a character to engender genuine attraction and companionship certain men hide behind techniques and weird creepy mind games so they don't have to put themselves out there like everyone else.
"Far better is to have a stout heart always and suffer one's share of evils, than to be ever fearing what may happen."
Men are rarely taught what to do to nurture, pursue, or grow a relationship. But they are taught — through their culture, social groups, media, and society — that they need to be an alpha male in order to succeed in life.
Men aren’t necessarily taught relationship skills growing up. Dads don’t tend to have heart to hearts with their sons about how to nurture and grow relationships; they are pretty much just told to use condoms and not get girls pregnant. And then there are other male role models like coaches, mentors, bosses, and so forth who also encourage the alpha male thing. There doesn’t seem to be much guidance out there for men who may desire more than just getting a number or getting a girl in bed.
I believe we, as women, need to encourage the men in our lives (brothers, husbands, friends, etc) to start talking to their sons more about the positives of having a loving, monogamous, supportive relationship and about what it takes to build and nurture one.
And I think that we, as women, have to be a little more sympathetic to men (I know, let the feminist arrows sling). They DON’T have a playbook. And the men that do spew out rehearsed lines or gimmicks aren’t authentic when they approach you, so even if you do end up going out with them, the whole relationship was built on something false, which is guaranteed to backfire at the end (anything that’s not authentic cannot stay consistent in one’s life; it has to fall away at some point).
The majority of single women WANT men to approach them. But when they do, many women are rude and brush them off. The majority of single women WANT men to pursue them, but when they do, have strict rules which don’t allow for a man’s possible lack of understanding in how to build a relationship. I believe that we need to learn how to encourage (the right) men to approach us in an authentic way. I believe that we need to learn how to encourage (the right) men to pursue us in a healthy way. (We also have to learn how to stop falling for the wrong men, but that’s a whole other issue).
I’m not saying here that men are totally off the hook and shouldn’t do any work; they have to. But we can help them along. We need to be a little more patient… and we need to remember that the messages men are getting from society about what it means to be a “man” may be different from the longings that are actually in their hearts.
Is "play the victim and beg for pity" the latest PUA trick?
wait… this is going to be a PUA hate thread or we are going to actually argue about this stuff "~seriously~"?
As OP I wished for a PUA/clichè courting hate thread
I used to think PUAs only existed in tv shows until I found the r/seduction subreddit. After reading a post on the terms they used I was disgusted. I don't know if it's just me, but all they care about is having sex and they think they know how all kinds of women think. They have all kinds of "advice" to work with women of different personalities, but it just comes off as being a creeper ewww… Good thing is that now that I've read some of their tips & tricks I might be able to weed out some fuckboys…
These men are "picking up" with the sole intention of having sex. I come from a fairly strict background, and because of such, I wouldn't have sex with a man unless if I could 100% see myself with him for the rest of my life (he'd have to feel the same). I feel like most PUAs will give up after a week of not getting sex, and they'll move on. The idea that these guys actually get what they want is disgusting and I kind of lose hope for humanity when I hear about it happening. I know it's hard to tell if a guy is genuine or if he just wants sex, but again, I feel like it really wouldn't be a problem if you just didn't give in straight away (I'm not trying to blame you for men like this being assholes, but just be weary).
I'm guessing you're a peener, so I'll say this. Some of the techniques PUAs use are probably going to be unavoidable for you (I don't actually know what kind of stuff they 'teach', I've never bothered to look into it), there's likely going to be overlap between what you do and what they do. My advice is to just be genuine, if your intentions are pure, and you really do just want love, then you shouldn't be trying too hard. If it's really love, then it should feel comfortable, and unforced.
I never bothered with any of the relationship or seduction subreddits but you genuinely made me curious enough to check out their sidebar links for guides.
So much of it is dumb horseshit that I actually feel kind of bad for the losers that would take any of that advice seriously.
It's basically Johnny Bravo giving you relationship advice, except his name is Billy (and these are his guides). Billy talks about "opening sets" and spends obsessively large amounts of time going into immaculate detail simulating these virtual encounters with virtual women and how to handle them. You can follow Billy through his bullshit journey of how he makes up stories throughout the whole pickup process.
But, as much as I want to shit on Billy, he DOES give one good piece of advice in the middle of his first guide, intended for newbies into PUA trash:Take Care of Your Shit
"Get a job, clean your room, get in shape, learn to dress (and smell) like someone girls want to have sex with.", he further goes on to say "get some hobbies. I read a lot, I write, I volunteer with a non-profit, I listen to Fresh Air, Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me and A Prairie Home Companion, and I cook a lot and like to learn about food and cooking. Pick whatever hobbies you want, but try to have something that is either hands-on or creative. It’s easier to attract girls when you’re an interesting person, plus you’re going to be much more relaxed and less needy when you have other sources of enjoyment in your life.
Thanks Billy, but I'm pretty sure if you're writing 5000+ word essays on PUA you're probably not following your own advice, even if you "write a lot".
>what should forever alone males do to improve their dating situation
act like normal people.
r/seduction is still active? I thought they all moved onto r/theredpill
Yeah, there is a lot of interlap between the seduction community and r/therepill (what a shock).
That said I don't mind much their books and bullshit pick up guide they sell. What I find really creepy are video like this where they pick up already engaged girls or videos in which they film them while having sex (without their knowlege)
If it makes you feel any better, those videos are most likely fake bullshit with paid actors.
Otherwise congratulations, there's dumb sluts out there being sluts. If you fall for this trash you deserve everything you get
Johnny Bravo giving relationship advice… LOL!!! At least if I ever browse through that subreddit or any PUA sites I'll probably read it with a Johnny Bravo voice in my head lol!
>Take Care of Your Shit: get a job, learn to dress, etc.
That's pretty much the only point I can agree with. Any guy worth their shit must be able to take care of themselves.
>To play devils advocate
Paid my ass. How can women resist this?
Seriously though, this guy is disgusting even for pua standards
What would be an effective way for a man to approach a woman who is receptive then? If men don't have a clue what to say or do then what is it that women should expect or want to occur?
I think being a friend first and foremost is always a good measure for a relationship and what to expect in one. The problem is that feelings may not develop or that feelings may change over time. That doesn't mean a relationship cant succeed but neither party ever seems to consider the work that actually goes into building and then maintaining a relationship.
Instead relationships seem more something in vogue rather than genuine. That of course is a hyperbole there are tons of people in healthy and happy relationships but those relationships succeed because people put them as a priority over other things in life.
PUAs are fearful and self-loathing. They lack empathy and imagination. This guy>>11644
is wrong - the common denominators are emotional.
I spot PUAs sometimes when I go out. I always pretend to go along with their script until the last minute. I hope I send at least some of them home to obsess over what they did wrong
I advise everyone else ITT who encounters one to do the same. It's fun to fuck with people who try to manipulate you.
I think the phenomenon of PUAs is part of a larger and more disturbing trend of online communities that develop world views treating life as if it were a videogame. Everything is about "minmaxing" or otherwise gaming the system to these people. They have no actual beliefs or aspirations beyond the checklist of gameified tasks and objectives that structure their behavior.
Lmao. That's genius but how do you spot them?
I've been harassed by these PUA types back in college when I would go to clubs with my friends. I'm a bit on the shorter stockier side and for some reason this attracted creeps to me becuase they assume I must be easy to fuck since i'm chubby? Anyways, they always used shitty rehearsed pick up lines and had zero, zip, NADA personality
I felt bad for the uglier men who tried this with me though, because it was obvious to me that they didn't know they were being sneaky or creepy
Nowadays i WISH any man would approach me , even a creep :'( Tfw i'm approaching 30 and no bf
I think lonely nerds buy into the idea that a scripted template will help them attain intimacy and sexual attention because that's how the rest of their life has always been structured: i.e., in terms of exams that one must study for and apply algorithms or formulas to. Of course this is an absurd model for the description of sexual relationships but they've invested in it because they're naive and desperate.
Hadn’t thought if it that way, but it makes sense.
Thanks for the insight, although it does increase my level of pity for them
I believe every single one is born with it but through social conditioning (bullying or being homeschooled for example) some receive unrepairable damage in their behaivor and attitude.
Every home schooled guy I know (and I know a ton) is better adjusted than the public school guys
really? it's the exact opposite in my experience.
i was homeschooled for two years and i'll be honest, when i got back to a school setting where i had to interact with other people my own age, i had very little understanding of how socializing was conducted.>>12804
oddly enough it was after learning what i think of as a 'script' for normal social behavior, i've done fine. but my script is something that's completely the opposite from PUA behavior: giving attention to people's interests and lives, being incessantly positive, and showing appreciation for others.
if i were a dude, incels would probably call me a beta for this kind of behavior, but man did it ever help me to actually make friends.
imo PUA act the way they do because they think they have to trick women into liking them. these dudes actually have seriously low self-esteem; they think without gimmicks like 'negging' or 'peacocking', nobody would ever give them the time of day.
I spend a lot of time on places where they hang out - TRP, /r/seduction, returnofkings, etc. - it's really easy to pick up on the formula and it's easy to sniff out forced "alpha" behavior
It be much easier is they'd just admit that they are not steve mqueen
I used to read r/redpillwomen because I thought it was kind of funny in a sick way at first but I just ended up depressed seeing all these women talking about their captains of whatever and how they need men for everything
This lady is a right-winger who just rips into them: https://disenchantedscholar.wordpress.com/
. I haven't seen anything like it before.
I may not agree with all of her ideas, but nothing is more based than a right-wing woman who doesn't intend upon submitting to a man. She's giving me some big Margret Thatcher energy and I'm honestly here for it.
>>12878>they think without gimmicks like 'negging' or 'peacocking', nobody would ever give them the time of day
And they are right.
men want skills that enable them to have sex the day they meet someone
but they don't want to date/spend their life with a woman who would let them to do this.
PUAs are honestly dumb.
I think those advices and so called tricks only work for certain type of men and women. It's mostly about normie nightlife guide for the socially awkward weirdos, nothing else. People go to clubs and bars to find strangers to bang, but some people are so socially awkward they don't know what to do. This is where PUA comes in. Yes, they also sometimes pursue for women in public, but this is because sometimes normies talk to other normies in public so they can bang later. I wouldn't be too worried about getting talked over by the smoothest of the smoothest PUA guy. You know what you're looking for, and if it's not some sleazy one night stand then you're already PUA proof.
I think what's cringiest about them is when they do bring it to day-to-day life to romance someone. I'm sure the tips are fine when looking to hook up but it's funny when you catch a guy trying to neg and kino you at university.
& kino? They talk about rare foreign films to seduce you?
KEK no it's ~kinesthetic approach~ like touching a person's shoulder or leg or something.
Don't even know why it's shortened like that tbh.
Sounds like a joke, based off of that.
Apparently it's supposed to be flirty and make a physical connection by breaking into personal space.
Yeah sounds as legit of a move as making mustard gas to get cool
crystals. The sad part is that some anon would be lonely enough to try something like that.
They aren't looking for someone to spend their life with. Some men are looking for someone to commit to, some aren't; both kinds want sex. I and a lot of other girls I know/ew make/de the mistake of thinking that a guy's refusal to commit has to do with who I am as a person, but it's actually just that some guys want to be with someone and some don't, and you need to learn to tell them apart if you want to avoid getting your heart broken.
No men are into commitment though outside of tradfags. It's a bit disappointing.
It's best to just give up on them altogether since it's not worth trying to convince them.
What's wrong with the tradfags?
I'm not one.
And even tradfags think cheating on your wife is fine. It's men.
Are you one of those "outrage culture" types? Go outside and talk to people.
No, I've just interacted with enough men to know how they will generally behave.
There may be exceptions but they're ridiculously few and far between. Outliers. Anomalies. The tiny bit of faith that gets your hurt over and over because it exists.
How far did these interactions go?
THIS>when your lab partner asks if you have a dick because you seem too chill to be a woman
You could make a thread out of this, but it would be way too screencap-able
My friends are all men, I've worked with many men, and I have asked several other men out for dates.
Out of these maybe two or three are capable of loyalty and bonding (and sadly none of those are ones I asked out, one is a family member and the other my best friend).
What's stopping you from taking your best friend?
I don't really see it as "sneaky" per se to be honest. The people who sell it are very slimy and remind me strongly of used car dealers, but from what I gather, what is being "taught" itself amounts to all the things that other men seem to do naturally when it comes to flirting. I don't get mad at men for flirting - although in my own view I think modern flirting is generally quite repulsive - so I don't get mad or view men differently if one of them does it like he was doing it from a textbook.
Looking at some of the videos, they talk a lot in depth (and this is why it appeals to a certain breed of men, who like things being explained to them meticulously like it's a manual or something) about what they think is the psychological and social reasons why these "tactics" work. So what they do is observe "charismatic" men who are sexually successful, note the specific things they do to attract women, and then brutally dissect that thing and repackage it as a trick. I think the thing that annoys a lot of people is the dissection, and not the trick itself. Those "explaining" (and here, quotation marks because it's all pseudo-science guff) get really brutal and offensive about it too, and unquestionably it's misogynistic because they see women as little puzzle boxes. At the root though that trick is still the same trick that the "charismatic" man used, and used to success! And no one seems to be too fussed about the actual behaviour or thing used in itself which caused these people to then hold seminars on it!
Rambling point to make is - is the clueless dude who uses a trick taught to him on first principles, with a meticulous lecture on why this trick "works" (amounting mainly to "hurr durr women are so stupid when it comes to this, this is how to pull the lever!"), in anyway worse than the man who does it naturally, but who is operating on fundamentally the same assumptions even if just on a subconscious level ("I am flirting like this because…hurr durr women are so stupid when it comes to this, this is how to pull the lever!").
See my point? To me it seems PUA is just an imitation of what is a misogynistic subconscious behaviour pattern that "charismatic" men display towards women. It's scummy either way in my opinion, but if you accept the latter, then unfortunately you shouldn't get too riled if the former happens, because at heart both are exactly the same thing, and that thing is treating you like a muppet as we say here. It would be nice if men were to flirt in a nice way, and at tea shops rather than clubs, then these deluded saps wouldn't act like assholes but instead try to emulate a behaviour that said "The best way to find a woman is to eat cake with her and make witty remarks about the weather".
tl;dr it's not what's being said but how it's said and who's saying it
Nope, inaccurate. That's clearly my fault then for not explaining it better.
I dislike both, because "normal" flirting and a flirting based on just observing that normal flirting are, at their core, indistinguishable. They are both predicated on seeing women as puzzles i.e. objects. The point is, both are equally bad, but if you have a problem with the one that's just parroting, rather than the behaviors themselves that are being parroted, you have to justify why you think that is without recourse to "normal flirting is a-OK". It's the exact same thing.
Well I mean your second point is women should stop falling for it. I guess I shouldn't have left that part out.
I did NOT say that AT ALL. Don't put words into my mouth. No one where in here -
>Looking at some of the videos, they talk a lot in depth (and this is why it appeals to a certain breed of men, who like things being explained to them meticulously like it's a manual or something) about what they think is the psychological and social reasons why these "tactics" work. So what they do is observe "charismatic" men who are sexually successful, note the specific things they do to attract women, and then brutally dissect that thing and repackage it as a trick. I think the thing that annoys a lot of people is the dissection, and not the trick itself. Those "explaining" (and here, quotation marks because it's all pseudo-science guff) get really brutal and offensive about it too, and unquestionably it's misogynistic because they see women as little puzzle boxes. At the root though that trick is still the same trick that the "charismatic" man used, and used to success! And no one seems to be too fussed about the actual behaviour or thing used in itself which caused these people to then hold seminars on it!
Do I suggest "women should stop falling for it" at all here? No. What I DID say is that if you, as an individual, think the tactics of these people are wrong, then you should also question the behaviour of WHAT it is they are copying.
A few years ago when I was 20 and super naive I fell for one because he was tall and cute, acted sweet on me and took me out to a couple of nice places. He told me straight up via text after getting me in bed that he was just trying to sleep with as many girls as he could. Mind this is after acting like he was interesting in something serious. I've never felt so disgusting or stupid or used in my life and thinking about his dumb baby face makes me really mad.
How long did you wait to bed him? Want to know how long these fools will go.
Honestly, not long enough. About two weeks, and I still feel absolutely disgusting for being that easy just because he acted sweet and looked good. I feel like he took advantage of the vulnerable state that I was in at the time and that makes me so mad that I want to cry. It’s one thing to seek casual sex, but it’s another thing entirely to seek casual sex with someone who isn’t looking for that and act like you’re romantically interested
Are you not attracted to your best friend?
Tragically, he's taller than me while I am into manlets and he likes amazons. So we just aren't attracted to each other.
Personality wise he's exactly what I'm looking for though, sad that this is the hand we've been dealt.
I'd take liking anyone over having some fetish fulfilled.
tbh I would give it a go if he initiated, but I wouldn't dare do it myself since he's been hit on by a few of his friends in the past and it makes him uncomfortable. I'd hate to ruin what we do have.
I trust him to lmk if he befriends any men who would be suitable for me though haha.
If he rejects you because he has some weird fetish for tall women, was he really that great to begin with?
I will never understand people who give a shit about someone's height
>he is absolutely the right fit for me but happens to be just a bit taller than I'd like. SO IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN.>she's cute but she reaches up to my eye level I can't do this.
I understand why. When a man is significantly taller than me I tend to think he looks disproportionate also I feel a little fear because I'm intimidated. Same thing if he is significantly shorter than me, it feels weird to have to look down and I don't like it.
Your examples are kind of exaggerated.
>>22660>>22663>wanting to be attracted to your partner is wrong
Interesting take. I assume you're all bisexual and indifferent to all traits outside of personality, right?
I started out complaining about male emotional impurity but now I'm the asshole. Maybe I shouldn't complain if I'm barely better (can commit but want to be attracted to who I'm with, and would like them to be attracted to me).
I didn't say that. I said that if he puts your physicality before your personality, then he's a terrible, typical pig-man.
Sure, physical attraction is important, but it's secondary to the soul, which endures forever. Clearly though most men disagree considering how they never seem to care about us as people.
Physical attraction is definitely what attracts you to someone at first, but all that stuff eventually fades. Personality and the other person's soul is what's worth sticking around for.
PUAs don't understand this, which is why they just try to sleep with any and all women that will give them a stiffy. Then they post on their blogs after they sleep with 100-200+ women or whatever milestone they were going for, and they wonder why after sleeping with all these women they still feel unfulfilled.
A little problem: if you don't first use a key to open a chest when you see it (you are using your eyes and deciding what to do), it won't open.
Same goes for discovering a personality and soul which are inside something visible externally.
>>11642>makes me want to become a lesbian
Sad to report that we get it too. I’ve encountered a couple of women who use PUA shit to try and get laid. One would always try and hit you with negging stuff, non stop.
Thankfully I can also report that both of them were chronically single, and it never worked for them. Small mercies
Welp. And here i thought about going to certain gay club with my friends as a way to bounce back from shitty drunk dudes who can't at least pretend they dont want to fuck you and run in the regular clubs
Oh it’s not THAT bad - you’re unlikely to get PUA’d by many lesbians.
I’ve only seen it twice and I’ve been gaying hardstyle for a good decade.
Honestly at gay clubs you’re more likely to get shitty behaviour from straight men who go there to try and pick up bisexual/lesbians.
Or of course to pick up straight girls going there to get away from them.
I’m in a weird place of ‘every gay bar is gradually becoming straight thanks to this’ but at the same time, you guys need somewhere to hide from their fuckery.
Worth giving it a go, at least.
>>11677>if you're writing 5000+ word essays on PUA you're probably not following your own advice, even if you "write a lot"
But if he's writing large essays doesn't that technically means he writes a lot?
So he can "technically" bring it up in conversation and some poor girl will think he's an actual writer
most of my guy friends hava had a phase with these kinds of things, and I was in on it all the time. But as we gt older, all of them found true love and relationship and the phase ended, but I really feel that the game really helped them find what works best for them. I personally don't think that ''the game'' is bad as it seems (if you're in your teenage years, but if you're like 40 that is pretty problematic)
>>22666>>I said that if he puts your physicality before your personality, then he's a terrible, typical pig-man.
I've never understood this rationale. Our personality is a composite of early life experiences (beyond our control) genetics (beyond our control) and quantifiable personality traits that crystallize and have been shown by psychologists not to change much past age 20.
Your body is somewhat bound by genetics, but you have so much more control over your appearance than your personality. Isn't it more fair to like someone for what they can control than what they can't?
>>22666>>Clearly though most men disagree considering how they never seem to care about us as people.
I think a lot of people who complain about this don't have nearly as beautiful of souls as they think they do.
Life ain't fair. There's no point putting lipstick on a pig.>>23178
Are you turning this on her? It's still a perfectly valid complaint.
All I'm saying is that a lot of people who complain that people only focus on physical beauty and not on personality don't have nearly as good of a personality as they think they do. It's hard to look in a mirror when you're not pretty and tell yourself you are. It's easy to tell yourself you have a great personality even if you have all the personality of a wet blanket. That's all.
In the end, it's physical beauty that gets your foot in the door.
Men are sneaky because they're human beings and humans do what works, usually with the path of least resistance. If a man wants sex and he can't get it by looking attractive or being genuine but he can get it by talking a girl out of her pants then it doesn't surprise me that that's what he'll do. I lament that we don't live in a perfect reality where everyone is genuine and upfront about their intentions, I regret that there are women who fall for PUA strategies and indirectly validate their existence, and I regret that there are men who lack the confidence or training to get women to like them without having to be deceptive.
>>23333> I lament that we don't live in a perfect reality where everyone is genuine and upfront about their intentions, I regret that there are women who fall for PUA strategies and indirectly validate their existence, and I regret that there are men who lack the confidence or training to get women to like them without having to be deceptive.
If we would all be upfront and honest since first meetings we'd go extinct very quickly. Would you go into bed with average guy who just comes up to you and says things like "god you're so hot and i daydream about fucking you a lot lately, could we bang?"
No. I take care of my looks. Get my share of compliments and pride myself in the fact that i can choose from the top, not middle looking guys when its only about sex.
Well that's why I specified "in a perfect world". My point was that I understand we don't live in a perfect world and thus I understand why men aren't always upfront when all they're looking for is a one-night stand.
This is honestly so based I love it
I wish I was like this. Personally, I would sperg out if anyone told me they wanted to bang straight up unless we were already somewhat acquainted and I was attracted to them initially.