I hate reading consoomers Anonymous 78147
I hate everything about the "reading" market. I hate how oversaturated it is. I hate how people only read cheap erotica (if they read at all mind you). I hate the covers. I hate everything about it. I am actually talented at writing and I try had but I will never get a chance to get anything published because it takes me thrice as long to research the setting of my short story to make sure it is as realistic while also having a unique storyline as possible, but instead I am beaten by the generic "Hello I am 14 year old Amy from China and I running away from factory life in China very bad I want emigrate to west!".
The first meaningful writing accomplishment I had as a kid was coming in 3rd place in some national-level writing competition, it was actually a great story for a kid and the idea was original too but the 1st place was given to some guy who wrote a generic "my mom has cancer lol" story. It makes me so angry. Everyone I talk to only reads such crap too, lotr, "what's his cat's name", sarah j mass…But then they tell me they are writing also with elementary-level reading skills and I wanna pretend like I am happy for them but really I just want to tell them to read first and stop flooding the market with crap. But why do I bother, they have a higher chance of getting published than I have :^)
sry i was originally gonna just write 2-3 sentences but it turned into a whole paragraph
op youre setting yourself up for a bad time w this post. it comes off as you being immature and egotistical. i understand you may have frustrations, but if you truly love to write, just write. why does it matter so much what the masses think of you?
Because I do not think I love to write anymore. After spending so much time talking with people who read and write and finding out that I am rather put off by all of them, I kind of just don't enjoy it anymore. Whenever I sit down to type, all I can think about is how not to be like this people, and how much I wish that they somehow did not exist instead of the writing itself. If I could I would jump the ship, but I cannot draw at all and idk how else I could use my imagination
Post some of your work
>complains about people consooming because they’re not consooming her work
You’re bragging about your writing from the 3rd grade. Humble yourself for two seconds and realize that you won’t be popular when you denigrate what the masses enjoy.
I know how this sounds, but my work is just better, as I said I research my topics so you actually learn something from the fiction I write. I just feel like the entry threshold to writing is too low, and so there is an influx of writers who are neither talented nor hard working, but just think (sometimes justifiably) that they can write better than (current popular genre fiction author)
I get what you mean anon. I posted a thread in media recently about being frustrated that so much modern media is trash and not understanding how people consume and praise this stuff.
I'm not really sure what you can do tbh but keep writing and sending it out places. Find some kind of novelty or personal story that you can attach to your work to make it stand out (because people don't judge work solely on it's merit these days, you have to have struggled in a unique way or something).
You sound like you don't make any art at all, or nothing beyond basic hobbyist level with no goals.>>78147
I can't write but I understand you OP. People may call you overly whiny or salty, but that's just what happens when you're a passionate person who cares about something. Just like >>78158
I've struggled to find media I like since childhood and still think most of media is trash. Everyone has such low standards for literally everything. I'd rather replay old classics over and over and I do. Sometimes I can't tell if I just don't have the "talent" to enjoy things or if other people just pay so little attention to everything. Even hobbyists who "do it out of love and no money" have no work ethic nor do they produce anything better. I want everyone to do whatever they do like they mean it. Consuming, writing, drawing, socializing.
I want to practice more and take advantage of markets where nothing good is being made, but my case is probably easier than yours, publishing companies and all. It looks so much more difficult to make a book that grabs someone's attention, than a VN or game or comic.>>78154
Prime example of reading comprehension right here
Might be a bit off topic but: The whole "media sucks now" argument makes me think of something. Feel free to debunk me and prove to me that indeed media currently sucks now and that it was indeed "better before".
But basically, I feel like the reason why media sucks now is because we have access to both good and bad media. When we look back on the past we only tend to see good media. But isn't it because the passage of time applied its filter and mainly preserved the good media (forgetting the bad media of the past because it simply didn't stick with people)? Maybe this is simply what is going on now (and was going on in the past and will keep going on in the future). I just hope this might help you be a bit more hopeful if you see things this way.
I don't think so. Today we have some van Gogh type characters who were losers but became famous after death glorified, but really, 9/10 people who are famous today were also famous during their lifetimes. If anything the opposite is more common, that actual quality authors who were fairly popular during their life get forgotten. You have all heard of Hugo or Maupassant, but have you heard of Léon bloy? Jules d'Aurevilly? James Joyce and Thomas Mann were just as famous when they lived as they are now. Also bad media gets sweeped away much faster than youd think, do you remember any of the garbage movies that were in cinemas 6 months ago? Some eras were simply better.
Really I just wish that there was some gatekeeping system that filters out people who just kind of got randomly windswept into writing, and have neither the talent, nor the willpower to write good stories
No, I completely agree with this. I'm not the OP but in my thread on /media/ I said I wanted to only consume classic media because there is lower chance of it being trash if it is still well regarded hundreds of years later.
I think another aspect is that we are now hearing the opinions of everyone via the internet, when in the past it was only more educated people consuming media. Half of all people have an IQ below 100. That half is creating and consuming media too, most of which lacks subtly and doesn't reference anything that isn't common knowledge.
There's also a lot of nepotism and networking around these days and media gets hyped up because of that, as well as people just straight up buying good reviews.
Have you ever read Elena Ferrante op? It's a newer set of really popular novels that are extremely well written AND addicting.. almost like "junk food lit" I think you might try thinking about it differently.
It's always been like this. That doesn't mean there aren't ebbs and flows to the quality of work in general though. Compare Golden Age Disney to shit like the Black Cauldron and Oliver & Company. There are some shit golden age Disney films, but it's obvious that some parts of the production process just got worse with time.
No one cares, clearly your writing isn't interesting.
>>78155>I know how this sounds, but my work is just better, as I said I research my topics so you actually learn something from the fiction I write.
Educational value and accuracy is nice I guess, is that how you determine whether a book is good or bad? Whether or not it's "accurate" and "educational"?>but just think (sometimes justifiably) that they can write better than (current popular genre fiction author)
Well, the entire point of the process is for people to try and see if that's true. If it's actually working they should make money, and if not they don't.
You talk about not getting any publishing, have you tried self-publishing?
>make shit popular stories like other people
>stick awards on the books you actually care about
If it's so easy to write the other way why not abuse the system so you can get to where you want to go?
Its more like, I put all the extra effort on top of writing a good story. Like, the reason there is so much sci fi and fantasy nowadays is cause they dont require you to research much, if you have a good imagination and got at least Bs in history in HS then thats all you need. Most people I have met just do not care about writing works with actual depth, some do it for the money but most do it to "express themselves" which I would be totally okay with but if they actually wanna publish it outside of their blog they should really take a step back.
>You talk about not getting any publishing, have you tried self-publishing?
Right now I am trying to win some relevant writing competitions to get a name for myself before I try to write something longer thats actually gonna get published, but I dare you to look at any short story competition and see what gets the top places. I call it "emotional masturbating", where the main character is like a one-handed kid who works for 50 cents an hour in Bangladesh and gets and runs away to live a glories life in some 1st world country. I could write that too, and I would probably win, but I just hate writing such trite, but unless a miracle happens I wont place anywhere cause I guess me writing about Persian royal courts just does not get your tears flowing. >>78174
cause I am not in it for the money, I wanna write about the topics I find interesting and be known for them or not be known at all, I dont wanna sell out (or at least not before my career even started)
Not the OP but unless OP has connections or a sob story, no is going to hear about their work. A lot of books aren't published because they are great.
>>78175>cause I am not in it for the money, I wanna write about the topics I find interesting and be known for them or not be known at all, I dont wanna sell out (or at least not before my career even started)
You used the phrase "selling out", I don't get it, is it bad to make money from art?
It's not bad, but you shouldn't do art for the sake of money, cause then you just pander and create art that is (at some level) sub par
>>78175>Its more like, I put all the extra effort on top of writing a good story. Like, the reason there is so much sci fi and fantasy nowadays is cause they dont require you to research much, if you have a good imagination and got at least Bs in history in HS then thats all you need. Most people I have met just do not care about writing works with actual depth, some do it for the money but most do it to "express themselves" which I would be totally okay with but if they actually wanna publish it outside of their blog they should really take a step back.
Well, again though, I applaud your efforts, but is how worthwhile a work is determined by how much effort someone puts into researching it? Like that's the dimension of quality? I understand bad writers exists, I understand lazy writers exist. I don't understand why "I put more effort into X" makes something intrinsically better though. The quality exists regardless of the ease or lack thereof.
>Right now I am trying to win some relevant writing competitions to get a name for myself before I try to write something longer thats actually gonna get published, but I dare you to look at any short story competition and see what gets the top places. I call it "emotional masturbating", where the main character is like a one-handed kid who works for 50 cents an hour in Bangladesh and gets and runs away to live a glories life in some 1st world country.
Oh yeah I understand exactly what you're talking about here, and most of the time this pandering is pretty sub-oar. I always tend to use the metric though that at least some people
liking your work is a better indicator of quality then no one liking it. The chance you're a Van Gogh who is poorly understood is vastly less likely than being a popular artist who everyone agrees is good. I suppose that may be a better question, do you have any people that like your work at all other than a 3rd Grade writing contest?
>I could write that too, and I would probably win, but I just hate writing such trite, but unless a miracle happens I wont place anywhere cause I guess me writing about Persian royal courts just does not get your tears flowing.
What stops you from writing a highly detailed Persian court setting with emotional masturbation in it? I don't understand the divide between the two. It doesn't have to be beat for beat, make a story about a highly accurate Persian setting and add in just enough emotional masturbation to keep you from vomitting, but to interest other people. (If it really is that easy.)
>>78179>do you have any people that like your work at all other than a 3rd Grade writing contest
Oh I just said that to show how lame ideas usually win I placed fairly high in other contests too but they were either not so relevant to land me a publishing deal or I got shafted to like the 4th place in favor of some emotional masturbation story
>I don't understand why "I put more effort into X" makes something intrinsically better though
Cause you should not consume media just to have fun, yes having fun is good and its main purpose, but media should also make you think a little, or teach something otherwise its just a waste of time. My stories teach you something about the time period (without being preachy I try hard to avoid that), its a damn good story too and people always tell me that they really like the stuff I write so idk
>What stops you from writing a highly detailed Persian court setting with emotional masturbation in it?
In part cause I dont want to and hate pandering, in part because I am not exactly an empath and writing such stories does not feel natural to me, I can do it, but it really makes me feel weird (and usually I just copy a formula of what I saw elsewhere for scenes that are supposed to be very sad)
>>78180>Oh I just said that to show how lame ideas usually win I placed fairly high in other contests too but they were either not so relevant to land me a publishing deal or I got shafted to like the 4th place in favor of some emotional masturbation story
Understandable, as someone whose only first place award was in a High School competition I get the feeling. Not for writing for me though.
>Cause you should not consume media just to have fun, yes having fun is good and its main purpose, but media should also make you think a little, or teach something otherwise its just a waste of time.
I 100% agree that not all media should just be "fun". Meaningful things can and should be in writing. I'll also state that the work just being fun doesn't make it intrinsically bad or a waste of time either though. In fact, I think it's best when the story is both fun
and has something interesting to say
, though this is an incredibly hard balance to manage. The crowd wants what the crowd wants at the end of the day though.
>My stories teach you something about the time period (without being preachy I try hard to avoid that), its a damn good story too and people always tell me that they really like the stuff I write so idk
Hmmm, well, I'm glad people tell you they like your stuff, better than nothing. Personally the metric I use in regards to whether or not a work is actually good isn't what people say though. People can say something is good and have no idea what the fuck they're talking about. Does your work make people "do" anything? Do they try to share it with others because of how much they like it?
>In part cause I dont want to and hate pandering,
Fair enough, if not wanting to is what stops you then I imagine you're a hobbyist more than someone who wants to be professional. These can be done at the same time, but, it doesn't sound like the goals align if this is the only thing stopping you.>in part because I am not exactly an empath and writing such stories does not feel natural to me, I can do it, but it really makes me feel weird (and usually I just copy a formula of what I saw elsewhere for scenes that are supposed to be very sad)
Well that would explain a lot. If what you want to write doesn't involve human emotions and empathy (like building any sort of emotional bond with your audience), it sounds like your target audience is incredibly limited. Glad to see you at least tried to in the past to see if you can push your limits.
I can make the characters feel human I think, but when it comes to stuff like strong intimacy then it starts to feel kinda wonky imo. I think I can write a friendship between 2 characters very well, but when it gets romantic it kinda, er, falls on its head lol. I have noticed that when I write those types of scenes and dont really know what to write then the result is usually rather similar to those bland eroticas and i dont like that. I can pull off a glorious or profound death, just not a tragic death
>the generic "Hello I am 14 year old Amy from China and I running away from factory life in China very bad I want emigrate to west!"
Kek, so the middle east girls are no longer hip
I have a feeling that there are only three main paths to be published:
-soup-for-soul shit/watpad fanfics
-avantgarde highbrow word salad (require bohemian publisher/established writer friends)
-filling the niche of a certain genre
I hear a lot of complaining about things that really aren't very important or weighty to begin with
maybe not to you they are not
I agree about reading consoomers, most modern literature is generic crap and no matter how hard I tried to see the merit in it, I never saw it.
Although you sound like a massive egotistical faggot to be bragging about a muh 3rd grade writing competition, PLEASE get over yourrself
I sure hope you write your books better than you wrote this post
>>78175>>Most people I have met just do not care about writing works with actual depth.
If they don't care for depth they won't care for writing at all.
>>78158>not understanding how people consume and praise this stuff.
80% of the marketing is appearing as a mass seller. Most of the stuff you see is small frogs trying to look big.
Besides, one's trash is another's treasure.
For instance, this >>78170
is sure trash (and I have suffered it whole, at least the first volume of the series), and this one >>78217 considers Tolkien a good writer lmao. It's entertainment, not literature.
That said, stop whining OP and find your people. If you're sure of yourself and your art, you'll find them. If you think the world owes you something, you're in for a lot of disappointment: you can't battle reality.
Look, I've found mine >>78387
idk why everyone in this thread says 3rd grade competition while that isnt what I wrote, I wrote that i placed 3rd place in a competition as a kid. ALso I said this elsewhere in the thread but I won other competitions too I just said that to show how people only care for tearjerkers. >>78450
I wish I could, writers I meet irl either have no personality or are probably the most annoying subgroup I have ever talked with. Even radical evangelicals are better to talk to than writers. Maybe I am just unlucky, and I know I can be kinda annoying but idk.
>>78155>as I said I research my topics
that's great I'm sure people will appreciate->the fiction I write
Oh. Researching topics super in depth for fiction isn't terribly useful. People read fiction because they like stories, and stories are made up of characters with motivations and goals interacting. Inserting some little factoid isn't going to elevate your writing because fiction readers aren't interested in little factoids - they may be nice additions, sure - but readers are interested in characters and what they're doing and how they interact with each other.
I used to read a shit ton as a kid, but since I got a smart phone I have only read bad fanfic porn lol.
I am not saying the shit I consoooom is great, but a couple points:
1. Mainly the good shit survives time, not the shit. That warps our perception that they only produced good stuff in the Good Old Days.
2. We make much more stuff these days. The higher standards of living mean free time for more people to become a writer etc, especially if they have money. Also, more people are consuming media, so more stuff is made.
3. The goal of earning more and more money by producing media faster and more efficiently often affects quality and artistic value. Then again, overworked slaves of the system often just want mindless shit to turn their brain off in the little free time they have (contradictory to my previous point but both situations exist).
4. The internet allows you to see allll the shit from all over the world, and anyone can publish their bad erotica on the Internet.
OP comes off as a bit arrogant. How old are you? You sound quite young lmao.
And also: how is some smutty paperback or it's consumer inherently worse compared to some old Greek farts musings? The smutty paperback has it's audience, and it brings joy to the reader. It accomplishes it's purpose.
havent read too many greek plays but the ones I did truly move you, its not a work of fiction just to have fun its supposed to teach you a profound lesson about life while being perhaps somewhat humorous. We have a word for it where I live but they are like "moral teaching", and sometimes they also give practical advice, meanwhile theres nothing you can drawlearn from marvel movies
Yes I am not surprised you are 19, you sweet summer child. I was much harsher at your age too lol (I'm 27 btw not 80 even if I sound like it).
I see your point, but the romance trash and capeshit was not made to be some profound masterpieces, that's like complaining a bag of chips isn't a five course meal at a fancy restaurant. And Marvel movies specifically are the unholy monster of making something so bland that maximizes profits to shareholders it's kind of impressive in itself.
but like, do you blame me for being annoyed that people only eat fast food and chips meanwhile they could eat at least somewhat more healthy? If your choice is between reading/watching garbage and not reading/watching anything then just dont do it. Maybe in the boredom youll think of an actually good activity to do
Oh no, I'm not blaming you. But people love consuming shit, be it potato chips or Marvel movies. That's just how it is.
Also - you can consume both "high brow" and "low brow" media, and most people do that. I'm not always up for some Intellectual(tm) shit, sometimes I just want to consume stupid mindless shit. And some people turn the bland shit into complex things in their mind and sperg about the lore for hours or create elaborate fan works. And some people simply are not interested in only consuming Good media since they have other shit to do. They would probably think of you as an idiot if you do not devote all your time into stock market trading, fixing cars or what have you. Idk if you get my point?
Something in the discussion reminded me of this image.
What do you consider literature, OP?
Ugh that's hard to say. I guess anything written that makes some very basic amount of sense is "literature", but there sure is a great divide between good and bad literature. Good literature should make you learn something, make you reflect on your life as you see yourself in the characters and see their faults and strengths (in a bit of an overexaggerated manner). But fiction books nowadays arent like that, instead of teaching you something thats applicable to the real world (like history, or something about science) they just teach you whatever they thought up about their own world thats completely removed from the real one and is about as useful as knowing klingon. And they change the meaningful characters for tear jerking. Like yeah, obv I am gonna feel bad for a kid whose mom dies and then his sister has cancer. I will cry. But I will not change my life because of that. At no point will I be "hm, i want to be like that character/not be like that character, how can I do that?". The greeks had a lot of people die, but it was always cause they were paying back some debt someone owed, it was never unfair.
(Actually The book of Job from the OT is a type of tearjerker done right, cause you feel bad for the guy but you are supposed to like him cause even though everything is bad he perserveres in his noble and selfless task, meanwhile if some hollywood guy wrote that he would decide to take revenge on God and that would be hailed as epic)
I made the mistake of buying one of those Kindle tablets with the ads on the lock screen and it always has the most disgusting, vile smut. "RAM RANCH - Can this billionaire cowboy widower find love again? This steamy
romance novel will keep you COMING
back for more!" Most interesting has been the romance books about men who turn into dragons, guess that explains why those dragon dildos are a thing.
>I invite you to put your money where your mouth is and post a link to something you have written so we can see the genius we have standing before us.
you know she won't
Also OP, I don't want to shit on you just to be mean, it's just clear you lack quite a bit of nuance and life experience, and view the world in a very black and white way, and sound anpic like the pic in >>78550
none of the stories I wrote are in english.
Also that's a lot of assumptions for how little you know me lmfao. I am materialistic? How'd you come to that conclusion? What you wanted to say is that I focus on the technical side of my stories more than the emotional impact, which is true. I don't write literature to express my feelings. If others do, that is fine, but that is not how literature has
to be. Sure a Dostoyevsky novel is just him expressing his feelings, but most fiction isn't like that. Ringworld, the only sci fi book I like, is absolutely amazing from the technical aspect and it doesnt have much in terms of romance or emotions or characters. It's just some guy who clearly knows his stuff writing a truly fantastic world that actually seems plausible instead of whinejerking about how his wife died.
It's like, if you have 2 people doing some activity, and one is talented but the other has trained hard, would you say the second is soulless? No, he just focuses on getting roughly the same result differently, he will have a more refined fighting style. And you'd call that soulless. The fact you wanna put me down so bad despite the fact you have clearly never read a book outside of top 50 sci fi and fantasy clearly shows you just dislike my attitude and so wanna put me down instead of reading what I said, thinking about it, and replying to that.
And besides, Tolkien is great from the technical aspect. The work is planned to read like a traditional germanic folk tale. Personally I think it is fine but people rail about it so much it's become unbearable. If you wanna read a technically flawed book with much passion, read The house on the borderland or memory sorrow and thorn. Those are sci fi and fantasy books that are very flawed, but the authors have much soul in it and they can both move you despite the fact that no one in the book has cancer, and the character deaths are just something that happens rather than being the main point of the story.
(Mild spoiler but the most moving moment in the second series is when the exact opposite happens, when some bumfuck dumbass character regains his sanity. I almost cried from how beautiful it was, you think others could write that? No, because they can only write about how very bad things happen to good people, it cannot be serene or lucid at all. I would not complain at all if it were tearjerkers that make you cry because it shows people and/or the world being good to someone for a change, but they are all just bummers.)
Things can be pretty and useful. I don't write technical manuals or literature of fact. And if you wanna write a piece thats just about how something happened to you and it moved you, thats fine, but dont consider it art. Sometimes life just happens. You will be moved sometimes. I once got really moved by a homeless man asking me for food rather than for money, and despite the fact it was almost almost 9 pm I immediately went to the store and bought him something and then spent almost an hour searching for him in an empty park at night cause he left the spot where I met him. If I wrote a story about that, would I win? Possibly. Is it literature? Hell no. It's a glorified diary entry.
Anon I get you don't like my attitude and that's fine but you are just wrong in what you have said.
You're not helping your case here OP by discrediting other people and talking about the rest of the world as if it were complete shit just because it doesn't fit to your tastes. I agree that a lot of popular media is very bad, and that many things get undeserved attention and success, and a lot of talented people sometimes just don't get recognition, and a big part of it is because of market saturation, in the good and also of course in the bad.
You mention you like technical stories but if I want to read something technical I'll go read a manual. I personally think that type of fiction is extremely boring, but there are naturally exceptions, and of course there are cases where there's a balance between the technical and feelings, which I personally find ideal.
Perhaps that's why your stories as not as popular as you wish them to be. Because most people want the emotional aspect in a story, as you said, and let me add that there's really nothing wrong with that. Which I perfectly get is nonetheless frustrating for you, and I don't doubt you might actually be a very good writer. In fact, a lot of boastful people usually are really talented in what they pride themselves in.
People are going to react negatively to that attitude though, but I imagine you expected it. Sometimes it's insecurity and jealousy, other times it's just genuine annoyance because it's not like this way of behaving is pleasant. Especially when you go and talk about the cancer thing that way. What if it was something that kid actually went through? Ridiculizing other people's pain and efforts to build yourself up will only bring rightful resentment of those around you.
Anyways, you could either change and as I see personally see it, improve your works by finding a balance between the emotional content and the technical aspects you enjoy, or keep doing your thing until you eventually find people who like your stuff. It's not impossible, just harder, but good things especially if they're uncommon, rarely come with ease.
English is my 3rd language, so what? And run-on sentences are terrible in any language
post your work OP
>>78581>Do you think others could write that?
You just described the beginning of Flowers for Algernon
Honestly, this. Some people go over board with trying to grab you emotionally by using ham-fisted sob stories but all good literature should move you emotionally one way or the other. You need to form emotional bonds with the characters.
OP, writing a lot of small details and doing a lot of research isn't bad but that's not enough for something to be considered good.
Don't listen to >>78565
Write books like Asimov. Long stories held together by slightly pretentious logic where emotion is seen as a sidetrack to be calculated and factored in. The world is a mess. People want order in their books.
>that deeply effected her
Anyway, not her, just here to defend her viewpoint. Art, as you have described, has a purpose. Arguably, that purpose is to discover beauty in life. Tear-jerk stories, when done well, affect you because they're real and because they remind you of how beautiful life is. They remind you of how easily it can be taken away, or maybe how easily it has been taken away in the past. The best book for turning robots into humans is The Brother's Karamazov, that book really opened me up to the other half of the world I was sleeping on. I definitely recommend it to OP because I was once similar to her, and still am, but I just see purpose and beauty in many more things than I originally did.
The only reason any of us here read literature is because we find it fulfills some purpose. Beauty serves a purpose. Love serves a purpose. Sadness serves a purpose. Happiness serves a purpose. We've become so caught up in the rat race that when we hear 'purpose', we think of something that makes a little number on a graph go up. Purpose covers so much more, and you've failed to convey that idea to her. You're both stuck in this mindset where there's a practical world and there's a playful world, and the two rarely overlap. This is mostly untrue.
Also, for the record, Tolkien is ok, but you can be indifferent to his works and still have a soul. I find the fantasy thing a little hackneyed, the guy was a world-building machine, but as far as writing goes, it's a bit of a slog to get through. At some points, his work feels more like an encyclopedic text about a world that doesn't exist. Maybe's there's beauty in the "other worlds" aspect, but really a good author should show, not tell. Tolkien mostly tells, and the poems are lame.
well i write a paragraph and then i rewrite parts of it, just on the internet i dont usually proofread the whole thing to make sure it makes sense so sometimes parts are clunky or repeat>>78590
I must have badly explained, I dont just ramble on about some technical aspect of this or that, I focus on the story and the plot, and theres some stuff spread out across that youll pick up and remember but its not a manual or anything. And I do try to write interesting characters, but I just dont like pulling undeserved punches and just killing off people en masse when it has no purpose to the story. You should feel bad for a character because their stupid actions have caught up with them, not because something bad randomly happened to them. Sure a lot of bad stuff happens randomly irl, but that should not be the case in stories since they wanna tell you what to do or not to do.
A character smokes a lot -> his kid breathes in the fumes their entire childhood -> they get lung cancer at a very young age, that is something thats tragic and perfectly okay to happen in a story as it is punishing hte main character for their bad lifestyle choices by affecting others. But if they are a good person and their kid just has bad luck and develops lung cancer for no reason, you will be moved, but its not deserved. Its emotional junk food>>78582
Well it's not like I want to put people down, I just feel like it is undeserved. Read the above reply please, things in stories shouldn't just
happen. If someone were to write a piece about how they felt because someone in their family got cancer that's very tragic and I would feel bad for them and hope them the best. But that does not belong to the market
, unless it has a lot more thought put into it than people expressing their feelings, which it usually does not.>>78591
sorry I never read Asiimov.>>78592
I read the brother's karamazov and actually I did not really like it. Dmitry was great I loved him and his relationship with those 2 girls but the rest of the book was just boring to me.
But yeah please read the second reply in this post, professional books have multiple levels that you do not notice unless you actually think about it. Stuff just happens irl randomly, but that cannot happen in a book with a theme and a story, and stories that are about punishing the main character also need to have some point to them, or it just gets masochistic.
>>78593>Stuff just happens irl randomly, but that cannot happen in a book with a theme and a story
I disagree. In fact, it's a flaw of literature that absurd elements are rarely executed, and when there is absurdism, it's poorly done. I think there needs to be a mixture of morals and madness. Just like in life, sometimes things happen for a reason, and sometimes things just happen. There is no formula for good Literature - it can have morals, it can have a story, it can simply explore random incidents and try connect them, or it can seek to explore the mundane and make it beautiful.
Anyway, fair enough you found TBK boring, a lot of people do. When I was reading it I felt like the meaning of life was hidden under the surface and I was constantly grasping at something unattainable, so I was hooked the whole way through.
>>78593>A character smokes a lot -> his kid breathes in the fumes their entire childhood -> they get lung cancer at a very young age, that is something thats tragic and perfectly okay to happen in a story as it is punishing hte main character for their bad lifestyle choices by affecting others.
I'd turn this around and say a character that smokes a lot and then gets cancer is boring. Anyone can see that happening a mile away. It feels like you end up reading the story twice. First in your head, predicting he will get cancer, then again when he actually gets cancer.
There's a reason a lot of heist movies (e.g. Ocean's Eleven) show how they predict the heist will go (perfect) but then when they actually do it, they mess up. If you watch Sofia Coppola's The Beguiled, the ending is very boring. The characters say they are going to poison someone, then they do it. No suspense, nothing unexpected.
The essence of good plots is the "bait and switch". You have to think of what a dumb reader will expect to happen, make them think that will happen, and then switch to something else last minute. The Sherlock Holmes stories are good at this, with Watson's explanations being the reader's stand in and Sherlock's explanations being the switch. A really good writer will also be able to include what the smart reader thinks will happen and then switch to a third, and completely unexpected to everyone but still plausible, plot element.
>But if they are a good person and their kid just has bad luck and develops lung cancer for no reason, you will be moved, but its not deserved. Its emotional junk food
The switch here is that you set up the happy kid, always nice to someone, looking forward to go to summer camp and spend the long summer days splashing in the lake, maybe seeing the girl he met last year and has a crush on, etc. Then when packing his things he feels sick, is rushed to hospital and it turns out he has leukemia (I don't know how cancer diagnoses work so humour me here). That's interesting. The lead up evokes the reader's own summer memories and now they are looking forward to reading about that. But bam! Now they have no idea what is going to happen and that's gripping. Will he finally get to swim in the lake and kiss the girl? Is this sweet kid really going to die so young?
Saying that, a bad writer can come across as emotionally manipulative if they don't give you a reason to like the characters first. "This is is poor Timmy and Timmy got cancer". I mean, ok, I feel bad for Timmy but I don't really know why I should be invested in it.
It would be more like
A character is depressed cause he lost his job, starts drinking, starts smoking, gambling, beats his wife and kid etc goes through an entire arc, straightens out, decides to quit drinking gambling smoking and when hes got his life back on track and you expect him to get diagnosed with cancer, then the kid
gets diagnosed with cancer. Tragic, unexpected but plausible, he now has to live with the knowledge that his sin made innocents suffer.
A character is depressed cause he lost his jobs, starts drinking, starts smoking, gambling, beats his wife and kid etc goes through an entire arc, straightens out, decides to quit drinking gambling smoking and when hes got his life back on track on his way home he gets hit by a truck and his wife and kid die in the crash. It is tragic and depressing, but there is no moral in it. Its not a switch and bait either, its just pure shock value
>>78604>It would be more like>Case 1:>A character is depressed cause he lost his job, starts drinking, starts smoking, gambling, beats his wife and kid etc goes through an entire arc, straightens out, decides to quit drinking gambling smoking and when hes got his life back on track and you expect him to get diagnosed with cancer, then the kid gets diagnosed with cancer. Tragic, unexpected but plausible, he now has to live with the knowledge that his sin made innocents suffer.
I don't think you would expect the father to get diagnosed unless there were some heavy hints about coughing, someone else getting cancer to put the idea in the reader's mind, etc. It's not a bait and switch then because it was never baited that anyone would get cancer. I'd say this one is more emotionally manipulative, unless we have a reason to care about the kid, e.g. the father really loves him.
>Meanwhile>Case 2:>A character is depressed cause he lost his jobs, starts drinking, starts smoking, gambling, beats his wife and kid etc goes through an entire arc, straightens out, decides to quit drinking gambling smoking and when hes got his life back on track on his way home he gets hit by a truck and his wife and kid die in the crash. It is tragic and depressing, but there is no moral in it. Its not a switch and bait either, its just pure shock value
This is actually the clever bait and switch with the third option. You think either he is going to lapse and start drinking/smoking/beating again OR he is going to lead a straight life. Getting hit by a truck is completely unexpected but still plausible. This plot element was used in Cold Feet and Mean Girls and worked well in both.
However, it's not enough to end the story there. You have to complete the emotional arc of the character. Will he then relapse or will he stay sober and move on with his life? How does he cope with knowing the only time he had to have a family, he wasted being a terrible person?
Yeah I am sure you will not care about a kid who is abused by his alcoholic father.
Also you are thinking of it wrong, I am talking about the pay-off, you are talking about the tipping point of the story, the thing that sets it in motion. The leukemia and car crash would have to happen before the 3rd arc.
Here is a practical example from a story I once wrote. It was about a pyromaniac confessing his sins to a priest. Over the story, there are subtle clues of the priest wiping his brow or fanning his face cause it is hot there. Towards the end the character mentions he always wanted to die in a building he sets on fire and at the end, you find out that the church has been on fire since before the confession began. It may seem unexpected, but if you go back and reread it it is entirely in sync with the story, with the character going from burning carpets, then kitchens, empty barns and ruins, small houses to a church as his grand finale. If I were a worse writer, I would have the confession end and then he would go and set the church on fire. There would be a clear division of story progression, from progressively larger projects to a sort of clarity moment to the grand finale.
Also random stuff like getting hit by a truck and killed is fine if it is either the start of the story, or the point of the story is somehow related to it, altho i cant think of something. This is very clearly shown in got, where at the beginning the characters die precisely at the apex of their arc, meanwhile over teh course of the show they just die for the shock value
>>78608>Here is a practical example from a story I once wrote. It was about a pyromaniac confessing his sins to a priest. Over the story, there are subtle clues of the priest wiping his brow or fanning his face cause it is hot there. Towards the end the character mentions he always wanted to die in a building he sets on fire and at the end, you find out that the church has been on fire since before the confession began. It may seem unexpected, but if you go back and reread it it is entirely in sync with the story, with the character going from burning carpets, then kitchens, empty barns and ruins, small houses to a church as his grand finale. If I were a worse writer, I would have the confession end and then he would go and set the church on fire. There would be a clear division of story progression, from progressively larger projects to a sort of clarity moment to the grand finale.
This is very predictable. Readers aren't stupid. As soon as you read pyromaniac you will be looking for clues about fire and heat is an obvious one. There's no switch here. It's just bait and payoff.
No offense anon, but this is very amateurish. Not just the plot but having a pyromaniac, a priest, and a confession. It's all tired and cliche.
>Yeah I am sure you will not care about a kid who is abused by his alcoholic father.
You won't if he is one dimensional. You need to build him up as a character and give the reader reason to care about him otherwise it is emotional manipulation. "He's an abused child! You should care about him just for that!". That's not interesting.
Here is a google translate version of one of my short stories. Obv much is lost in translation and I dont care to rewrite it properly to english. I won 1st place with this but the competition wasnt particularly prestigious. It had do be around one A4 length.
"And when that fire turns into fire and devours the whole building, then I feel really alive. My heart beats with him, the veins flowing through the arms of the flame, which no longer embrace the house, but absorb it. When the building I set on fire burns with the force of a thousand stars, I feel like a virtuoso who has composed another masterpiece. I thought I would become a firefighter, because they go to fire concerts all the time, from the smallest serenade to large operas. But then I remember that I would have to interrupt these performances and I have no heart for that. How could I live with myself if my mission was to destroy what someone else had created? ”
"Hmmm," the priest said, biting his lips, "do you remember the first time you set something on fire?"
That he's asking me at all. "I was about 7 years old and I went to the toaster with my father. After we loaded the logs and twigs into the hearth, Dad handed me a box of matches and said let me try to light it. I pulled out one match, struck it, and it lit up immediately, and a moment later the fire flashed. I couldn't believe it. Such a narrow firewood and with it I immediately swallowed the wood, which even my dad had difficulty carrying. And how many matches in a box. And how many boxes in the kitchen on the sideboard! How many trees, playgrounds, hay, shacks and homes could I refer to extinction! So much power in my handful … We were at the cottage in a few days and my mother took away my TV. As soon as her eyes narrowed at night, I lit the first match. It took a while for the carpet to yield, but then it went fast. The curtains, couch and newspaper soon turned out of curiosity and immediately ignited! The fire soon conquered the entire room and sent its smoky messenger to spread the word about the return of the true ruler to every room. Then Dad caught me and I don't remember what happened next. "
"Ah," said the priest, wiping the sweat from his forehead, "and what else did you set on fire?"
"Everything I could get my hands on. Boxes, barns, houses, fields, a few times rats, if any were trapped. The flame happily swallows anything, even though my satisfaction with it is varied. Burning books or pieces of wood is annoying. Would you like to live only on water and bread? That flame is a part of me, a part that wants to dance, sing, chant and show the world in all its beauty! How could I express myself on a ragged canvas like a pile of leaves or some dirty animal? And the more people enjoy my show, the better. When I sometimes walk among those who stare at a fire, I see it in their eyes, the same look I once had when I was little when I sent my eyes into that inferno for so long that they never returned. "
"Sure," the priest said, fanning his face, "and did you ever hurt or kill people in the process?"
"It simply came to our notice then. People are greedy and selfish to the depths of their souls. I always give them a chance to escape, but they rarely use it. First they turn the drawers and pockets, they pack as if they went to the Himalayas. I often ask myself, what do they care more about? On their lives, or their misery. Once a fire has caught on you, it's better to give in to it. Living so disgustingly disfigured is no longer life. I too will one day stand in the midst of my magnum opus, and I will gladly turn to ashes with it. Each actor is expected to leave the stage at the end of the performance. And so, Father, I have come to trust you with this. I hope that after I am no longer here, at least someone will remember me. "
"My son, I'd love to forgive you, but I'll want you to go to the police station first and confess to your actions. God will forgive every sinner who feels guilty for his actions. ”
“Guilt? When did I say something about guilt? This is my only joy in this otherwise disgusting world. If so, the blame falls on humanity for oppressing and condemning me in this way, I have had my share of it. And besides, even if I wanted to confess to the police, I can't. Don't you think it's hot here, Father? ”
OK, so your writing style is very good, even in translation. I can easily see why you won. There's a lot of smaller stories in the story, even though it is short, making it layered. It makes sense that he is sweating his brow in response to the stories involving heat and not just because there is a fire.
Since you were limited by word count, I can understand that you didn't have much space to work with regarding the ending. I like that it's tied into not being able to confess to the police because it's on fire but maybe you should have been less direct in the question.
I guess I've already responded here, but I want to respond to your vent now with a possible solution/option.
You say that the reading market is oversaturated, and I agree, but I think it's entirely nepotism that's to blame for all the garbage, not necessarily that they write one particular type of story that can be pumped out quickly. Publishers will tend to publish children of friends, meanwhile you or I could write the exact same stories and we'd be passed over. One of the biggest intellectual ideas of the 20th century was that marketing is more important than the product. Most jobs today are in manipulating people to want something, not in making something people want.
I'll admit, originally this was a bit crushing to realise, but now I see it as extremely liberating. I'm waiting til I have a bunch of short stories so that I can release them as audiobooks on youtube. I might even try find an artist I like to collaborate with me. Some people shit on this because I'm "giving my ideas away for free", but I think these people are just uncreative. When you have ideas and artistic passion, you don't create to make money, and you don't really care if someone gets enjoyment without paying. I've made maybe $20 total from my creations, but receiving comments from people saying how much they love it is rewarding, and the negative comments always provide good direction or things to consider. Creativity is a way to leave something behind for other people to enjoy, it's a way to express myself, and most importantly it's a way to process my own thoughts and ideas, and give them to someone else to continue carrying the torch through the generations.
Your story about the arsonist is quite good for its length (I'm assuming it was written when you were younger), it is a little cheesy and I could tell where it was going about half-way in, but the idea is clever and something I haven't exactly seen before. I think it would be extremely unfortunate if you died and left all your works largely inaccessible to people who can read whatever language you speak, I think you shouldn't worry about getting it published straight away. Instead, you should focus more on having it somewhere for someone. Eventually you'll gain traction, and I think you're good enough to actually get recognized somewhere along the way. The sorts of stories you hate on are forgotten within a generation because they are trash. Most of the great writers we know about today are lucky if they're "big" in their own time - many were poor and went largely unrecognized until their death/much later in life.
I sympathize with you, anon, and can understand your frustration. We live in a society of hedonistic abundance and short-lived pleasure. People chase the dopamine rush, the short burst of emotion, something to make them feel what they can't feel in their dull daily lives, because they are numb. People want something that can be chewed and get their tongue tingling, and then spit out without digesting or leaving any nourishment. Like that other anon said, it's like fast food. If they can use it for some virtue signalling on the side, all the better.
So, in essence, you don't have much of a chance to make it big, no. But that doesn't mean you can't. There will be always those who appreciate great ideas and great works of art. And if there is something that doesn't change, it's the normie's desire to appear cultured and "informed". So all you need to do is to get the attention of such people, but then your work really needs to be exceptional. Other authors have felt the same frustrations, like Radbury and Poe, and time has avenged their opus. It isn't easy, but if it were then everyone would do it. If you don't want to sell out, you don't have much choice.
However, I detected a little bit of close-mindedness to your posts.>>the reason there is so much sci fi and fantasy nowadays is cause they dont require you to research much
This isn't really true. The best science fiction and fantasy works are the ones that makes you think about the world as it is, and that requires extensive knowledge of reality. Capturing this reality is an essencial part of writing, and authors can't really afford to be close-minded.
*Bradbury, and phone-posting is torture.
No offence anon, and I cannot exactly tell you why but the post has made me decide I should just give up on writing. I'll go pick up the guitar or something else instead.
Don't give up anon, you have talent. However, I think you should give up on trying to be a bestselling author as that requires connections and luck (like the other anon said) but I do think you should be able to put together a short story collection and get it published in a smaller way.
I should add, luck and connections don't only apply to writing, but everything you do. If you want to be a musician you will face the same issues.
Well I dont really care for money but Id like to be somewhat famous. And besides all my work is kinda overwritten like that, these sort of artistic descriptions layering on each other. Right now I am writing a longer piece about the persians and virtually 80% of the book reads like the story I sent you, except it doesnt jump around and theres a more streamlined storyline. If you think thats childish then thats probably the reason I will not succeed, cause the judges think so too and I cant do better
NTA but the layering is one of the things I most enjoyed in your story.
I never said it was childish, I'm the anon that really liked your story >>78612
I see. I am sorry nona, I do not take criticism very well (as if that is not obvious) and I have been in a very bad mood these past days which is why I am so angry and disrespectful in this thread, I kinda just needed to vent a little
That's ok anon, we all have those days. I really hope you don't give up writing.
>>78685>Id like to be somewhat famous.
if this is your reason for writing then give up. this shouldn't be why you write.
Please post more stories OP!
Maybe I have terrible taste but I like most book covers, especially the garish typographical ones. And I especially love the dumbass poetic titles. The only thing I love more than a book called something like "The yellow conifer cries for nothing" are idiot indie song titles like "I wish I had a benzo addiction to forget about you". >>78166>But isn't it because the passage of time applied its filter and mainly preserved the good media
Yes. There are so many trash movies from the 1920s-50s. You just won't hear them pop up in general discourse, because why would they?
Hell even well-regarded media of the old times kinda sucks imo. I hated Tale Of Two Lovers.