>>190181 There is only one Kirby nona (I think, if there's others show yourself please!). To be honest, with characters like Kirby, Dedede and Meta Knight while I do say they're my husbandos I truly can't imagine myself as an individual fucking/dating them because my self esteem is that low and imagining myself in such settings is too much that it makes me sweat and get dizzy. In the context of "I want to X Meta Knight" I usually imagine a grey woman or Waddle Dee doing the thing I want rather than myself. Really, I more so just have an obsession with these characters, the games that they are from and the pairings they make (like kbdd, mtdd or kbmt) rather than obsessed with shipping myself with them. I confess fully to appropriating the term "husbando" as a term of "intense obsessed endearment" rather than actually shipping myself with them. Though, I suppose in my case I wouldn't call Kirby a husbando as I see Kirby as female rather than male (Though there is some instances in derivative work that I will make that I put Kirby as male, Popopo is always female though.). Would "waifu' work? Either way, it can be pinned down to an autistic obsession. And yes, I do draw and write porn of Kirby characters. Though I like making doujinshi the most! Ironically enough, I don't purely love Dedede, I actually love all three equally at this point I've just been in my "Dedede-phase" of the Kirby-Meta-Dedede season in my brain. >>190194 Only if you're an anime watching casual. Game Kirby isn't the same as Anime Kirby why is this so hard for many to comprehend???
I was in the bookstore today and I overheard some teen girl being flustered because she had to loudly spell out "toilet bound hanako-kun" to the worker to check if they have it kek.
reposting I hate sonicfags fuck fuck fuck >>190205 >shuichi has almost no character to the point he feels like a self-insert Don't insult my precious emo boy thank you, he ended Danganronpa. >and he's straight except his guy crush on kaito And that he can date men in game >he hates kokichi the entire time kek Source? Kaito's the one who hates Ouma mate. >i don't get saioma at all Ouma's a faggot for Shuichi, there you go.
for the anons with the "water has chemicals! milk is not milk anymore!" theories: do you guys think drugs is a government thing or not? like i can safely do drugs without the cia spying on me or not
I’m so fucking horny right now s I would shove Kirby in my pussy and I’m not even the Kirby girl. Any fictional man will do I’m tired of the real world. Imagine him squirming around in there tho
>>190191 sounds like concentrated milk or something. honestly dairy farms have too much milk to play with. we're filtering it down now? give me a break. just stop milking the cows. stop breeding the cows. we don't need super milk. I eat cheese (and sour cream on potatoes) but I would give it up if the dairy industry would just stop. cows are supposed to live for 15-25 years. the life expectancy of a dairy cow is 2.5 - 6 years. it's obviously not a cruelty-free system
>>190244 danganronpa is so low selling they had to put it on the App Store and the game is basically known for being a laughing stock prerequisite for your turn to die >>190245 i couldn't even get through the first one, it's so goddamn bad
>>190254 >danganronpa is so low selling It's literally the 4th highest selling visual novel series of all time but alright. >and the game is basically known for being a laughing stock prerequisite for your turn to die Eh, I like both but Nankidai can't even finish YTTD after 5 years.
>>190263 I feel I should clarify, I did not write the post about shoving Kirby up my vaginal canal. Ureatheral vore is deplorable and subjecting Kirby to that is fucking horrifying.
>>190263 swear to god I'm gonna white knight kirby nona I'm gonna fight u you will not make this environment toxic for her she is a native plant and you're messing up the PH of the soil
>>190278 It looks like a gijinka version of Gumball from the Amazing World Of Gumball being shipped with a gijinka genderbent version of the cactus. Westaboos are out of this world so it's not too farfetched.
>>190275 they should unhide /sty/ some nonas really need it (like the one that posted her period clot in /ot/) but it will probably just be purged or something when/if lolcow comes back
I was really rooting for you yumefags before when I didn't know what it meant, but now that I have witnessed the filth of the kirby anon(s), I truly understood why you people are hated.
>>190284 Which one is the cactus? I've only seen a few episodes of gumball honestly. >>190287 It's not even the edgiest VN with a death game in it, fate is way more edgy.
>>190297 she didn't do anyhting wrong I love it and she did politely spoil it but if there was a board for that sort of thing she wouldn't have to spoiler it
one of the 2d idol songs that's on my spotify playlist has lyrics that sound like "cumming face" and i laugh every time. yeah boys, that's really great.
>>190311 Me, I'm saying DR while pretty edgy isn't even the most edgy VN in the death game genre (which is already niche as fuck) so it's not even close to the most edgy franchise of all time.
>>190321 No I'm just saying that DR is edgy but it's not the most edgy franchise ever. If we're just talking about VNs the most edgy is probably like maggot baits or something.
>>190301 Okay you're right, I'm sorry. I'll still root for the normal ones but Kirby anon should kill herself. Are we sure she isn't a scrote? Like she is rivaling the worst coomers. I refuse to believe a woman would be so fucking disgusting.
>>190291 >baby First OFF. THEY'RE. NOT. BABIES. None of them are. Kirby can only be considered a baby if you're talking purely in the context of the anime, 星のカービィ, where Kirby was unearthed from his warpstar 200 yesrs eariler than he should have been. Outside of the anime, which mind you is a 6/10 at best, is non-canon. Kirby, like most characters bar Adeline/Ado (she's the only canon child) are vague in age. As that was intentional for one reason. Kirby being vague in both gender and age is so that ANYONE can enjoy Kirby, woman and man, young and old. As for erotic appeal… it depends on the character. For Meta Knight he's fot all intents and purpose "perfect top or dom". Meta Knight is super cool and has many 'appeal point', he weilds a mighty sword, has his own battle ship, commands his own fleet of soldiers and more. He has bat wings, wears a mask and cape, has an adorable face under said mask and cape and so on. I think a big charm that Meta Knight has is that he has a lot of 'gap moe' to him. He hides himself under the facade of mystique, he's strong and powerful, and he has an air of stoicism and maturity but he also has an adorable face similar to Kirby, he has a huge sweet tooth (which could imply his body is erotically plump), he cares about upholding a chivalric knightly code! It's hard to put into words but Meta Knight is just really good all around. He's perfect for taking on a more dominant and mature role with his whole "intimidating knightly aura" but you can knock off his mask and turn him into total humilation bait.
>>190328 samefag but I gotta add. To clarify, Kirby as a franchise has MANY different medias. There's Kirby anime, there's Kirby manga (several different ones), there's even Kirby novels. So if someone says "I love Dedede!" or "I love Meta Knight" it's not uncommon for someone to either describe which one of Meta Knight or Dedede they like or their individual interpretation of Dedede or Meta Knight may have an amalgamation of different traits pulled in from different media. It's surprisingly cool and can lead to a lot of fun interpretations.
>>190331 I’m not trolling I just don’t care. Why do they have to be human? Yeah she’s unconventional but it’s not harmful to literally anyone or anything. You yume haters act like yumes with anthro husbandos are like the zoosadists. Bitch is just writing fanfic about a 8 inch tall pink ball. It’s literally funny, and harmless.
>>190333 >still haven't recovered from surgery a month later >phone stolen by an aggressive scrote who stalked me the whole evening >workload of two people at once >lolcow is dead Well… can 2022 get even worse than that?
>>190339 Bitch I'm mad because Kirby has been one of my favourite franchises since I was fucking 5 years old. I don't know a single fucking scrote who would say even half the shit you have said about this innocent sweet character. Fuck you. Like you might as well have said you draw porn of puppies or some shit. Fuck you! I've never hated someone so much. I really feel like I'm talking to some reddit scrote here, you are that fucking awful.
>>190351 Sonic autism has always been a thing and it's pretty much normalized at this point. Also refer to my other post here >>190349 that anon is taking something very precious to me (and other anons I'm sure) and shitting all over it, just like scrotes do. It's sick.
>>190355 I still don't really get it? I mean I used to be really into kirby as a kid but I'm not really sure how it's that different from sonicfagging.
>>190353 Kirdede anon ships the boys together and most Shadow fangirls ship him with Sonic. The fake ass war between yumes and fujos is so stupid. It overlaps so much.
>>190331 Idk, I'd rather have Kirby porn than gross moid rape porn. It's obvious she's just autistic and obsessed with it because of good childhood memories she had. This is just the product of those feelings mixing with reaching adult sexual maturity.
>>190365 By shitting on it, I meant basically just defiling it. I hate when scrotes take something pure and cute and ram their dicks into it. She's basically doing the same thing. Fuck her and fuck you too
>>190366 >as soon as it popped up on lc more often it started in my usual husbandoposting spots it's so dumb. can't we just high five and learn to tag stuff?
>>190351 >>190361 >>190374 kirby just looks too innocent and babyish (even if he's really ageless or hundreds of years old) to me. idk it's like wanting to fuck a plushie. the designs give off a different impression
>>190349 For someone who's been into Kirby for so long you clearly haven't been in the community enough. >I don't know a single fucking scrote who would say even half the shit you have said about this innocent sweet character. That's where you're wrong. This is more so the JP fandom so please bare in mind. The JP-Kirby fandom, more so the derivative work side is predominantly women, like 98.5% and one of the most popular characters is probably Meta Knight with couplings being Meta Knight x Kirby. AND LET ME TELL YOU THERE'S A LOT. Art, novels, doujinshi(several which I have) it's there. There's a surprisingly HUGE amount of smut to, all of it is mostly made by women. To say it is scrotish to have such thoughts about Meta Knight or shipping is a baseless accusation as it's a huge part of the fandom. You really think scrotes would make shit like pic related? The JP-fandom is literally factions of Meta Knight, Magolor, Dedede, Marx and so on who each have their own dedicated ships like Magolor stans loving Magolor x Kirby or Magolor x Marx. It more so sounds like your personally offended rather than it actually being a moral problem.
>all these retarded fujo vs yume psyops I smell a rancid xy. Stay seething, fictional men will always be superior and I'm glad my fujo/yume sisters know that.
>>190410 Wtf? It's not our fault no one wants to make good yuri media. We only get crumbs, fuck off if you have a problem that we appreciate the little that we get
>>190383 I can't read any of japanese text that but it doesn't look like porn, how is that the same thing as saying she writes and draws porn of kirby? Writing and drawing porn about waddledees fucking kirby, or even talking about shoving kirby up her vagina, is rancid and coom-brained. Like another anon said, female chris chan behavior.
>>190397 for all the hate she gets she really doesn't freak out at people or spam. I don't think she was ever banned and I never saw her break the site rules or anything. like I said she's a native plant. you're a weed if you're trying to choke her out.
so how come some women want to be like, the pussy police? >wahh don't like yume content >wahh don't like yaoi >wahhh don't like small pink blobs like who gives a fuck? moids are out there with much worse sexual tastes with absolutely no shame. why tf should i care if a woman wants to sexualize kirby? how does that help us?
>>190416 >even talking about shoving kirby up her vagina First off, not me. >how is that the same thing as saying she writes and draws porn of kirby? What I'm saying is, Kirby is predominantly inhabited by women in the "derivative work" sphere of the fandom and that it's common as fuck for both kinds of stuff, safe and not-safe content, to be made and that it's no different than someone drawing porn of anime boys fucking or romances between them. It's a matter of perspective, because even I will admit that to the uninitiated this all looks crazy but if you actually knew it's relatively normal within the fandom. What I don't understand is what is scrotish about it? If someone drew porn of Ado then that would be scrotish and deserving of a gunshot to the head but if it's Meta Knight and Kirby then I don't see the problem
>>190436 Yeah, you've got a point there. The only fujo anime I actually thought was good was hybrid child honestly while there's a fair amount of good yuri anime.
>>190437 it's "scrotish" because they want women to be pure asexual beings, only ever want to have very bland/normal sex with men, or be cottagecore lesbian wlw who hold hands and kiss but never have sex because that's "too porny". ignore people like that, nona. they have sexual problems of their own.
>>190442 I don't know, I think she's pretty entertaining I like her extreme autism about Kirby slits or whatever to the point where I wanna hear how she HC's how they fuck.
>>190446 You're so retarded. Why is it so hard for you to accept a normal woman can squee at two cute anime boys kissing without any tranny shit going on. Genuinely starting to think this is an anti yume psyop
>>190456 I watched Umibe, it just felt like one of those 'read the manga' movies, which it failed at for me since I had no interest in reading the manga after watching the movie.
>>190468 please for the love of all things that are holy, get me out of here and back onto lolcow. some of these anons here with us in the bunker threads are making me want to kermit
>>190436 yuri on ice isn't even bait it was canon gay. and it was wicked popular. one weird thing I remember is that I used to listen to the My Brother My Brother And Me podcast and even they talked about it. then it just kinda died, no sequel or anything. I would like to listen to tinfoil about why that is.
>>190471 Personally, I find people who defile plushies to be utterly degenerate. I like Kirby, but I respect the merchandise as it's a psychical manifestation of something someone is passionate about and such. I feel that to go as far as doing something like that is completely and utterly insane, and denotes you as mentally ill and disrespectful to the original source media. There's a reason why most plushfuckers are moids after all.
>>190476 at least in the farms i can just ignore the autist sperging, here I'm stuck on the bunker thread with anons discussing if kirby is for scrotes or not
>>190490 it's so quiet outside of the bunker thread, it feels very eerie. i keep venturing outside this thread just to see what else anons are saying but it's just complete silence.
It's not that normie women wouldn't post on imageboards, it's that imageboards are more obscure than where normie women do post. LanaBoards had plenty of normie posters, MumsNet is full of just random normie women, and more niche places like MyProAna or something are also female oriented spaces. I think normies lean more towards actual forums as opposed to anon boards
>>190510 He's a man slut though, he literally has four kids all with different parents (CC, Kallen, his sister and Suzaku respectively) in the mobile game.
>>190486 Agreed. It feels wrong to have people who would commit such an act just hanging around in society. They need to be skirted off into their own community far far away from regular society. And by community I mean an insane asylum specifically just for them.
I was decorating xmas cookies with my mom and aunt and the topic of those PrEP commercials came up and we all agreed gay scrotes are disgusting sluts. Why do they play those commercials during tv for normal people anyways they should play on porn sites or the data lounge
>>190512 4chan is cancer though. I know women post there but after experiencing lolcow, the moidposting there is unbearable. I tried to explain how lolcow works to a friend of mine and she found it confusing. Idk about the US, but the concept of imageboards is probably unusual to the average female user here. Even though I was glad to stumble on fellow country posters on lolcow and on the lolcow music nights
>>190529 Those commercials and the erectile dysfunction commercials should be fucking banned. Also the bent carrot commercials. Why the fuck are half the commercials these days about men and their dicks? I'm tired of it.
>>190535 >>190534 >>190533 I'm glad you're all here nonas I'm genuinely so happy lolcow and cc exist. these little corners of the internet where it's mostly based women are so rare and precious
>>190519 This is my daughters favorite toy and she carries it everywhere and moids always act so fucking autistic about it and make weird jokes. Like seriously she's a baby just playing with toys stop making everything weird
>>190535 Those of us who knew about imageboards before Lolcow and its predecessors existed just had to manage. /cgl/ was fine before moids took over recently.
>>190551 I went back to cgl after two years of not using it and was honestly flabbergasted at the state it was in. How did that even manage to happen? We're all the old mods replaced with scrotes or what?
>>190512 Ayrt. Yes, 4chan is famous, but think about why it's famous. You and I know it's full of every kind of moid from normie to complete cancercels. Normies know 4chan as a dark web murder group of nazis who organise mass shootings and plan out genocides of gay people. It's not a place where normie women are going to gravitate towards
>>190535 What really made me stop posting on 4chan was the harassment. You could never talk about any female oriented anime or manga without getting insulted by moids. Fujo threads always got spammed and derailed to death, fighting and pleading with the mods to have 1 fucking thread in peace was so stressful. You could never give any opinion as a girl without being told to fuck off or derailing threads, so you had to shut up and put up with moids' warped perception of women and what they like. So tiring, I'm glad I left.
>>190554 I remember hearing last year on lc that /cgl/ has actual tranny jannies now which explains a lot. Generally the coomerism is off the charts on 4chan. I remember going to /sp/ world cup threads since 2010 and while they were always fast and spammy threads they never had as much porn as they did this year. It was like every 3rd post was a porn gif, unbearable.
>>190558 nona this isn't true anymore i'm sorry, 4chan is a curiosity for children and teenagers at this point. very few people are actually scared of it besides boomers and very clueless millenials. like 60% of users are zoomers and girls from tiktok claiming to be 19+, posting pics of themselves or people they know, and insulting eachother lol. sometimes normies think it's funny to post nonsense on /b/ when bored, but don't really go there regularly
>>190558 I mean there is a genre of 30+ yo women who went on 4chan bc they played wow with their neckbeard husband. They look like homely normie women with jobs irl but on the inside they still have “unpopular in hs” complex.
>>190563 fujo posting got better there (marginally). I notice there is always a very slow thread on /y/ with actual discussion of yaoi titles and people even refer to each other as "she" by default. on /a/ there will occasionally be a BL thread with 0% stupid namecalling or derailing, just discussion of BL manga without smut (or minimal smut). and a little Ao No Flag trolling but not too much. I say this as a very occasional lurker though. I got sick of it a long time ago but can't help but check back sometimes.
>>190576 >4chan is a curiosity for children and teenagers at this point do you mean american children and teenagers right? because most of my irl friends dont give a fuck to imageboards >>190582 yeah but posting nsfw lesbian porn on unrelated topics is r/actuallylesbians behavior
>>190588 Honestly feels like female posters are at an all time low currently on 4chan as depressing as that is. Only board you really consistently see femanons still is like /cm/ and /co/
>>190568 What if I fell in love with my husbando when he was more than a decade older, but now I've almost caught up. Also I've always been 3 years older than him anyway cause his game is set in the future…
>>190588 Do you mean the homothreads with the mugen thread pic or is it an actual BL thread? The last homothread I was in like a month ago got spammed as well. I would be very interested in an actual BL thread.
>>190571 It's every fucking board now. Even the small inactive ones like /wsg/ or fucking /an/. Hence why I'm 99% sure 4chan is not even owned by proper mods or hiro anymore but feds making sure it stays unusable.
>>190563 4chan is just cringy. Every time I go on to try and give it another chance I last maybe 30 seconds because the moidposting is so viscerally painful.
>>190593 /co/, /v/ and other video game boards, /b/, /soc/, /r9k/, nobody threads in /x/. /mu/ is well-known by some actual normie musicians, lots of tiktok egirls think they're cool for knowing about /cgl/, etc
>>190592 >do you mean american children and teenagers right? because most of my irl friends dont give a fuck to imageboards nta but I'm eastern euro, 4chan was well known in all slightly alternative/nerdy/gamer male circles as far back as 2012. It's really not that obscure, especially nowadays
>>190593 /b/ has a ton of openly underage posters, I wouldn't know had I not went searching for something on the archive kek
I want lolcow back. It's the only tolerable website to have discussions with women from my country. I tried to get my fix from another image board and it was full of gross brain dead scrotes. Then I tried my luck with a gossip subreddit about cows from my country and it was full of teens and its too goddamn slow.
>>190599 yes thank you I forgot what they're called, I do mean the homothreads. I haven't lurked one for a year so I have no idea what they're like lately. they were ok in 2021 I guess lol
Trannies cannot be lesbians because they are men. Transgenderism is the most patriarchal bullshit ever, it’s incel men who are so pussy deprived that they will try to be “haha one of the girlies” just to be around women. This post will be deleted because the ugly troon mod reading this will get his dick in a knot. Kys tranny.
>>190613 Literally, the first thought that came to mind when I saw the pic was how blatant the differences between lesbian art made by women are compared to males.
>>190603 I remember a thread a few weeks ago about someone asking why all artists in that thread are so good and they tried so hard to avoid the obvious answer kek. Moids quite literally can't cope.
>>190254 I wanted to play it because I figured it’d be a cool rpg. Realized how boring it is. Fuckin Roblox used to (and probably still does) have better danganronpa knockoffs made by kids.
>>190627 dr is garbage, badly written with almost no gameplay and the characters only exist for fanservice and are extremely one-dimensional and gimmicky. the only people i've seen hype it up are edgy teenagers who think it's "mature" because it's gory
>>190643 it's bad as a game and badly written as a visual novel, it literally has no redeeming qualities. when people bring up criticisms of the writing or one of the 829292 plotholes i've seen fans say "it's just a game don't take it too seriously!!" but there's almost no gameplay
>>190568 This is so nasty, im at the beginning of my 20s but i never understand when girls date old men. Like they do understand they are being take advantage of right? They're not stupid minors anymore, it's sometimes hard for me to feel even empathy for girls like these. Do they just havd daddy issues, what causes some girls to put themselves through this?
>>190659 Always find it’s always the most immature chicks too because anyone with a good head on their shoulders would realize how weird it is. I’m 22 & maybe I’m just biased because of my experiences but I’d much rather be with someone my own age & grow together than be with some old man whose done all of it already lol. Then again if you’re both consenting adults do whatever as long as you aren’t hurting anyone
>>190663 Hopefully not, unless y’all know something I don’t I figured it’s just maintenance because they’ve been updating the site to some new shit or something due to all the troons & moids spamming and fucking up the threads
Idk how handmaidens read posts on r/MTF and don't peak. All of their posts is about them wanting boobs, wishing to be anime girls, saying how much of dumb sluts they are, coomer behavior, etc. It is an amalgam of sexist stereotypes.
>>190659 They don't. Billie Eilish is dating a 31 year old moid and she thinks she's so cool for doing it. Says shit like "I got this man, ME, I did it". You should see the interview where she talks about him. As if it were difficult for a hot 20 year old millionair to date a fucking 31 year old moid. She thinks he is amazing and looks up to him so much. It's so sad, he is so ugly and it makes me so mad.
>>190672 My theory is that straight women are more comfortable in doing mild gay shit, exactly because of being straight. Unlikely to be a serious gesture with a lot of consequences.
>>190694 It's true, the "no homo" straight girls are much more likely to be lesbian than the "OMG boobs girls are so hot" makes out with their friend type straight girls
>>190700 samefag, I'm sorry I should have taken screenshots because I was somehow able to get into what looks like a front page stand in but can't anymore. sorry anons
>>190698 The point is that straight women don't actually like boobs and thus can joke about it easily, while lesbians are hesitant because it's actually true
>>190697 They had a small banner at the top of the site that said “planned maintenance” with a date for at least a week, if not two. I didn’t look to see if it was announced in meta.
ladies i was just out to drinks with my bf and some of his colleagues. i have a no irl friends and felt so awkward the whole time. the conversation took a turn to livestock and it took all of my strength to not bring up the interesting facts id learned earlier today while reading the wikipedia article for mr hands.
>>190702 Yes, straight women will flirt really hard with me, confusing the fuck out of me. Like, going really far. Then with actual other lesbians, could be going out on a date and there's hardly any flirting, just a lot of nervousness and apologetic confessions via DM after the fact. Or being expected to assume interest from just a couple glances.
>>190711 Its not that complicated. There are ppl that when they find a bf/gf have 0 interest in other ppl like old friends etc. So idk of its soooo misteriussss
>>190713 i'm one of the most insufferable people i know and yet i know 1 or 2 girls i might text every now and then. for you to be sociable enough to have a bf it's weird that you're not sociable enough to have friends.
I tried to join a female only gaming discord and they ignored me when I sent verification so I left now I'm paranoid they are going to use my info for something even though I blocked stuff out. Dumb lonely me
I dont feel like scrolling thru all the kirby yume drama, but I used to have a crush on claycia back when the game cane out & my main motivation to learn how to draw was for making NSFW art of her kek Im pretty sure I still got a pic of me giving a pic of her a cake I made for valentines day somewhere…
UK girlies are the royal mail strikes done yet? I ordered some Terry's chocolate oranges to try them for the first time and I'm dying for them to get here. Should have ordered through some german shop instead of Amazon.
>>190746 >>190750 yeah and that makes your situation worse, do you usually frequent lc's relationship threads? how can you use a radfem imageboard and not realize that working from home, alone without friends in a foreign country because of a moid is not a smart move?
>>190740 I'm the same but we both moved to a new country. He made friends but I'm retarded so I can't. I actually don't really want normie friends. But for me this is better, because here I could leave him whenever I wanted and any job would pay me enough to support myself. Back in my 3rd world home country that would have been impossible. If we lived there and got married, I would be 100% depended on him. I love the 1st world.
>>190383 I used to love the Magolor/Marx ship when I was young. It was more of a platonic/best friend OTP though (I'm so sorry but the smut made me laugh out loud), and I still think they're cute. The good old days of 2012 Tumblr…
>>190758 its not the same because you both moved to a new country but do yall dont have a family? i would never let my daughter move alone with a stranger moid like this. its so risky
we lived together abroad for 3 years before i moved to his country. i thought i would make new friends but somehow wasnt able to put myself out there enough to meet local women
>>190739 where are you having them shipped to? There have been some delays but people are still getting their parcels. Something I ordered that was meant to be delivered earlier this month is arriving today (apparently).