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413FC054-79D6-4EC4…

Why aren’t you vegan? Anonymous 214942

Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?

Anonymous 214945

borger tasty

Anonymous 214946

Vegans are completely and unequivocally right about everything, but I am still just vegetarian because I am a bad person who can't put doing the objectively right thing over the personal pleasure of cheese.

Anonymous 214948

>>214942
an animal dying at the hands of a human is a far better death than dying in the wild. so if you care about minimizing animal suffering, you should eat them, simple as.

Anonymous 214951

Human bio-forms don't get rights just by being alive. Vegetative coma patients and fetuses only continue their metabolic cycles by the sufferance of their proprietors. A human's right to life is contingent upon its active participation in society, and/or the will of an active social participant who will suffer their life. Similarly, there is no right to life for animals.

The distinction between human and animal life in the state of total removal from or rejection by the social contract, is that most – but by no means all – societies reject the use and profit from the harvesting of human biomass for productive purposes, including production of both food and other goods. However, this exclusion is by no means absolute, nor even coherent. In the case of fetuses, fetal kidney tissues are used to culture and develop almost all serious vaccines, organs are traded like commodities by medical organizations. Human-based meat is taboo, but so are the meats of many other prohibited animals including endangered bushmeat. The prohibition in modern America is largely against harvesting human biomass for profit on the part of those who un-alived said biomass. This is entirely unfair and arbitrary, there is no reason a woman who underwent abortion should be excluded from the profit a corporation is likely to get from harvesting what is in fact her biological property and was extirpated on the basis of her biological proprietorial rights.

Anonymous 214952

chicken and cow are too delicious

Anonymous 214955

>>214948
An animal intentionally brought into existence by a farm was created from horrible mechanical rape in order to live a life in squalid horror in which it is likely torturously raped if female or simply tortured if male, suffers deformities and disease, and is only granted an admittedly merciful death after years of force feeding–frequently devouring some of the remains of its own parents–in darkness and filth.

Anonymous 214956

I can't say I'm vegan because sometimes I go fishing. To me it's only fair to eat meat if you are willing to take a life yourself. Other than that I keep a vegan diet.

Anonymous 214957

>>214945
>>214952
Someone could easily say the same thing about killing and eating people feeling too good. This isn’t a joking matter and these responses worry me….
>>214948
There are people in developing countries who you could essentially say the same thing about. It still doesn’t justify killing or enslaving them.
>>214951
This is some very sick logic. You could easily justify torture/experimentation on humans so long as they were severely mentally disabled to the point that they didn’t respect our social contract.
>>214956
Still not a justification…

Anonymous 214958

>>214955
that isn't the only option. what about hunting, fishing, even farming can be a good life for an animal if you do it right.

Anonymous 214960

>>214942
Morals, rights, etc. are all intangible drivel. We are omnivores at the top of the food chain and nothing more.

Anonymous 214961

>>214960
You could justify racism or sexism with this logic

Anonymous 214962

>>214960
Vegans are right according to the only semi-objective moral framework (utilitarianism). The suffering of animals is maybe not similar in quality to that of humans, but still tangible. If there is such a thing as an objective moral obligation, it is to reduce suffering.

Anonymous 214963

>>214957
>There are people in developing countries who you could essentially say the same thing about.
meh

Anonymous 214964

>>214962
Im not a utilitarian. I don’t believe there’s a moral obligation to kill all carnivores for example

I believe in rights. I believe it’s okay to defend yourself against a animal attacking you though

Anonymous 214965

>>214963
So you admit you are a hypocrite? In the op that was what I was getting at

Anonymous 214966

>>214957
It's just that I think humans are animals too, worse in a lot of ways actually. If an animal were to kill me and eat me I wouldn't mind it. My problem with meat consumption is the industrialization of the process, which is literally a factory of suffering and death like the other anon said. Also people's aversion to death while literally eating corpses.

Anonymous 214967

>>214966
Well most humans are capable of reason but still choose evil. Animals don’t know any better

Anonymous 214968

>>214965
veganism is a luxury diet that most humans cannot afford. we do not eat people and can't really or we get sick. there is no way around suffering, you cannot stop animal suffering, we do not eat animas to make them suffer, we do it to survive.

Anonymous 214969

>>214968
You’re an idiot. Most people can’t afford to eat a diet full of animal products.

Anonymous 214970

>>214969
wrong. and since you called me an idiot i'm done here. good luck with your poor health

Anonymous 214971

>>214957
>You could easily justify torture/experimentation on humans so long as they were severely mentally disabled to the point that they didn’t respect our social contract.
That has historically been one of the social purposes of imprisonment. When the social contract is severely breached it is more often done by men with mental disabilities than otherwise; Joe Arridy was only exceptional in his complete inability to comprehend his position, it was a matter of degree rather than quality that made "the happiest man on death row" noteworthy. Social, psychological, and biological experiments are still conducted on prisoners, with the only significant change in modern states as opposed to the states of the mid-20th century being that prisoner experimentation requires no more than "minimal risk of harm." The MKUltra experiments of the 1960s conducted on prisoners would, incidentally, still pass that legal requirement.

In terms of social experimentation it is arguable that even that minimal standard is rarely actually met. The American justice system in particular is world-renowned for not just containing but in fact encouraging and weaponizing rape as a terror weapon against its own male population to discourage criminality, not amongst the prisoners, but amongst non-imprisoned adult men. Prosecutors are also known to specifically threaten men with rape to coax a confession out of them, and in male correctional facilities the highest rate of rape in fact occurs in jails rather than prisons and on an inmate's first week rather than later because those facilities are socially structured to promote the rape of new inmates in order to psychologically break them before transfer to actual prisons after full conviction or confession.

Biological experiments on patients in persistent vegetative states are not conducted very often but donating a living but non-personed body to science is not particularly more problematic than donating a dead body to science, and the law will eventually come around to treating these intact resources no differently than it currently treats fetal cell lines and Henrietta Lacks.

Anonymous 214972

>>214968
It's not a luxury diet. Rice and beans have all the essential amino acids for example. Supermarket products targeted for vegans are a scam.

Anonymous 214973

>>214970
>takes 12 pounds of grain to produce one >pound of beef
>grass fed animal products are a leading >cause of deforestation

Plants are a privilege!

Anonymous 214974

>>214971
>Most moral meat eater

Anonymous 214975

>>214961
Justification caries the implication of acting against some greater principle like morality. I would say the idea of it has no merit. It is essentially trying to coddle oneself with a belief of relative goodness.

>>214962
The idea that something like moral obligation exist is questionable at best. Such a thing could never be objective.

Anonymous 214976

>>214975
It’s hypocrisy to give rights to all humans but not all animals.

I believe all sentient beings should not be murdered or tortured.
Obviously we can talk about exceptions like self defense

Anonymous 214977

>>214974
Yes, my stance on the eating of meat is consistent with my stance on abortion and on the harshness with which male criminality should be treated. Incidentally there is a significant legal question about whether or not state-mandated prison sexual assault actually constitutes rape. This argument is based on the laws governing prison medical experimentation. Legally, it is not possible for a prisoner to consent to medical experimentation, but consent is also not required to perform said experimentation. The boundaries of bodily sovereignty end at conviction, which is also one of the legal distinctions between the death penalty and homicide. Since a prisoner's personal consent for the use of their body is not legally required, the rape of a prisoner, whether by guard or other prisoner, is really more a kind of property crime than a personal crime.
>>214976
>It’s hypocrisy to give rights to all humans but not all animals.
Yes, which is why no society in the history of humanity has ever given rights to all humans, including a right to life itself.

Anonymous 214978

>>214945
fpbp love me some borger
>>214957
the government doesn't want you to know people are just as tasty

Anonymous 214979

>>214977
I didn’t think me stating animal rights should exist and be respected would turn into this and certainly not this quickly. I can’t make this stuff up….

As if people don’t get raped before conviction…

Anonymous 214980

>>214978
People aren't tasty in the same way though. Cannibals have affirmed over and over that baby meat and even child meat tastes absolutely horrid, unlike say veal. To get a good cut of human you have to eat adult, or at least adolescent. The required time investment more than anything else makes human meat a complete non-starter.

Anonymous 214981

>>214976
Yes, that's why I said humans are worse. But you are fighting a lost crusade anon. To end all suffering no life can exist. The best we can do is to not support modern slaughterhouses. That's why I believe hunting and fishing are good options for ethical meat consumption.

Anonymous 214982

>>214979
People definitionally only get raped before conviction. Prison "rape" is arguably a condition of punishment, which would be prohibited under the US constitution's prohibition on "cruel or unusual" punishments. This would then proceed into arguments over whether a given circumstance was either cruel or unusual. The rape of a pedophile for instance might be seen as both appropriate and regular.

Anonymous 214983

>>214981
It’s not about ending all suffering. It’s about ending rights violations

Anonymous 214984

>>214976
>hypocrisy
I'm not sure why you replied to me as you did. Rights exist as only as ideas in social contracts and legal arrangements. They have no actual presence or form. They are not real. Rights simply are a fake possession people feel comfortable with.

There is no social contact or legal arrangement formed between humans and other animals. They are not part of our greter societies, and, accordingly, the have no participation in, or claim to, the idea of rights.

Anonymous 214986

>>214982
People who are innocent get raped. People get raped for possessing a plant.

Im not going to debate the ethics of rape and selling human body parts so I can justify having a cheeseburger because I’m not a psychopath.

Anonymous 214987

>>214984
Rights used to not apply to certain humans belonging to certain groups.

Obviously there exists children or the severely mentally disabled who have no concept of rights but I still believe they deserve rights and therefore it’s wrong to murder or torture them.

Anonymous 214988

>>214986
This is a thread dedicated to an industry built on the profits reaped from systematized, automatized suffering. Society contains multiple such industries, including the prison industry. If you are not willing to debate the ethics of profiting from systematized human suffering under the condition that said humans had their rights repealed, then you're not prepared to debate animal suffering under the terms of animal rights either.

Anonymous 214990

>>214988
Of course I’m against cash bail, people in jail for possessing a plant, rape in prisons, private prisons, mass incarceration, etc.

But a guilty person like a murderer being kept away from others to not harm anyone isn’t the same thing as an animal being breed into existence to be tortured and killed

Anonymous 214991

>>214987
Rights only exist in any practical way as legal protections in a social contract. Despite any personal convictions you have about what is wrong, correct,unfair, or fair, rights are not relevant to non-participants of a social system.

Anonymous 214992

>>214991
I’m obviously not referring to them in a legal sense but a moral one.

There are people who do not respect our rights such as the six year old who shot his teacher. Or a wolf who bites someone.

It’s still wrong to torture either ;)

Anonymous 214995

>>214993
Animals kill each other so let’s do it too?

You are wrong about nutrition btw.

Anonymous 214996

>>214990
>Of course
Not the right starting place. The issue is not whether you have a conclusion for the ideal treatment of murderers that seems congruent with the ideal treatment of korean jindos bred for meat stands. The issue is whether or not the suspension or annulment of rights even to the point of such things is actually unprincipled or unconscionable–whether rights are extended by and through a society and therefore do not exist outside of societies, or whether they are inherent to a being's life itself and are thus not revocable by a society. The first is the meat eater argument. The second is the anti-abortion argument.

Anonymous 214997

>>214996
A right to life is inherent to a sentient being itself outside of a society. You do NOT lose your right to life when you take a nap though

I believe in the right to self defense and bodily autonomy…. Also I don’t see how starving a fetus out even if it’s sentient is murder.
I guess I’m pro choice?

Anonymous 214998

>>214995
I always laugh when vegans talk about nutrition. Yes, if you're a city office worker who sits on your butt all day, you can supplement your diet with vitamins and veggies. But that isn't gonna cut it for the people who are going to have to perform manual labor all day in the hot fucking sun to pick the fruit or other intense jobs. They'll fucking faint.

Anonymous 214999

>>214998
As if there are no vegan athletes? The IDF has plenty of vegan soldiers too.
Most vegan’s literally only take b12 and vit D. Meat eaters could benefit from vit D too.
Maybe also a EPA/DHA algae supplement

Anonymous 215001

>>214999
Lol alright yeah. go do a real job and try it. See what happens to you.

Anonymous 215002

>>215000
Trust my anecdotal evidence instead of the seventh day Adventists who are the healthiest population on earth

Anonymous 215004

>>214996
Thank you articulate nona for eloquently expressing the nature of the "meat eater argument" I was espousing.

Anonymous 215005

>>214997
>A right to life is inherent to a sentient being itself outside of a society. You do NOT lose your right to life when you take a nap though.
"Sentient" is a very liquid term. In ye olden tymes, it referred primarily to a creature that had "senses." This was a distinction between insensate life, such as single celled life and plants, inanimate objects, and so forth. I believe you are making the argument in the vein of this definition, that animals are sensory and demonstrate sensory responses, particularly nociception.

Nociception has a very long history of ideologically convenient politicization. It is still considered present in some life and absent in other life forms. For the longest time it was argued that even apes and carnivora did not experience true nociception. It is only quite recently that arguments about nociception amongst insects or crustaceans gained any scientific evidence in either direction. I have heard vegans who argue that if insects do not experience nociception then they would accept factory farming of locusts and other mass production compatible insects for industrial protein production.

Infant nociception to this day is "poorly understood."
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn1701
Infanticide is legally distinct from homicide in Canada. The argument for essentially-legalizing infanticide in Canada was not principally based on nociception, but nociception amongst human infants has been the subject of a lot of the bioethical debate around the decriminalization or reduction-in-criminalization of human infanticide (including statements by vegans like Peter Singer in the wake of the controversy stirred up by Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva). If it could be demonstrated that nociception in animals was as distinct from adult human nociception as nociception is in fetuses, or even in infants, would that constitute sufficient evidence that such a nociceptor-deficient animal was appropriate for factory farming?

Anonymous 215006

>>214996
It’s so much work to justify a diet that’s worse for the environment and human health just so you can enjoy the taste of animal products…

Anonymous 215007

>>215005
I don’t care about Nociception. I care about ability to feel pain and pleasure.

I have my disagreements with Peter singer. I’m not donating all my money to third world countries but we should stop fucking with them with our horrible foreign policies.
I don’t support torturing infants or animals.
I can’t believe you would justify eating animals by equating it to infanticide and saying both are fine…

Anonymous 215008

>>215007
>I don’t care about Nociception. I care about ability to feel pain and pleasure.
…that is specifically what nociception means.

Anonymous 215010

>>215008
I call it sentience. There is plenty of research on animal sentience and they can absolutely feel pain. Yes even fish

Anonymous 215011

>>215006
>>215010

>>215007
Brainlets.

>>215006
She isn't offering justification or condemnation on the issue. She is only pointing out the potential fallacy of animal rights as a concept.

>>215007
>>215010
Maybe look up words you don't know the meaning of.

Anonymous 215013

>>215011
That term is rarely used.
Again there’s research on animal sentience.
Lookup “universal declaration on animal sentience “

Anonymous 215014

>>215013
The Universal Declaration on Animal Welfare (UDAW) is a proposed inter-governmental agreement to recognise that animals are sentient, to prevent cruelty and reduce suffering, and to promote standards on the welfare of animals such as farm animals, companion animals, animals in scientific research

I don’t believe in welfare but there

Anonymous 215016

>>215010
I wanted us to use the specific and untainted term nociception for a reason, even though I did pick up on your usage of sentience. The popular media conception of sentience has been tainted to the point of uselessness with science fictional works that freely confuse sentience with human-equivalent intelligence, or with free will, or with decision-making processes. Online discussions about the nature or existence of "sentience" are more commonly found online in debates on AI and whether or not androids should be given the right to vote than on whether or not cat meat is ethical. This leads to a confusion in terms and accusations that you as a vegan would be asking us to assume the unknowable and imponderable, which would ultimately be unfair to you, since you were talking about something both specific and demonstrable.

The question of infanticide as pertaining to the rights of non-person life is far more complex than you're giving it credit for, but was also a way of trying to formalize an argument around rights that treats you fairly. It should allow you to articulate a position that bypasses knee-jerk antagonism based on the offended sentimentality of carnivores.

Anonymous 215019

>Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?
Animals have been eating each other since the first primitive cells began to engulf each other in the ocean billions of years ago. There is no such thing as inherent rights for animals
I'm fine with wanting to improve the state of farmed food. Having animals cooped up together in their own filth and using exorbitant amounts of antibiotics to prevent death is clearly idiotic because eventually the antibiotics will become useless as bacteria and fungi evolve immunity (this is already happening).
I heavily support buying locally raised and butchered meats from small farms, but I recognize that it is incredibly expensive for most people and not realistic for them.

Anonymous 215020

>>215019
Animal products are not affordable. They’re subsidized but expensive

Anonymous 215022

>>215020
Do you have a breakdown on the difference in subsidation of animal products versus plant products? Looking into the subsidies that cereals farmers receive in the United States has led me to some weird conspiracy theorist rabbitholes in the past.

Anonymous 215026

>>215024
This seems like a nonsequitur. Nona's arguing for veganism as a health positive and Adventism as a healthy vegan population, instead of arguing for Adventism as a religion and veganism as a means of proseltyzation. Are you counterarguing that Adventists are a healthy population because they maintain higher chastity rates for longer rather than because they are vegan?

Anonymous 215029

I dont have the time or money to buy hundreds of supplements for foods I've cut out or to plan my meals really carefully so I get everything my body needs.

Anonymous 215031

>>214942
i dont eat monkey and meat is nourishing faster than having to eat huge amonts of veggies.

Omni-vore is god tier. Fight me vegans.

Anonymous 215035

The Billions.jpeg

For one thing, we are omnivores that need meat. Those that live in tropical regions can augment their diet with more varieties of fruit if they want, but if you live in the colder regions, you should be eating some meats. Not in excess of a healthy diet of course.
For another, my perspective is that we're symbiotic organisms over the surface of the Earth, the same way all the little but very numerous microbes in our own body are. I'm all for reforming meat processing and cutting back, and I don't mind vegetarians, (excuse me? give up dairy and go vegan?? Fuck that), they're okay with me as long as they're reciprocal. I am not going to eat "zee bugs"
Final point. Human mass replaces all other biomass. I'm more concerned with balancing biodiversity and slowing/stopping the mass extinctions going on right now.

Anonymous 215041

>>214980
serial killer/cannibal albert fish said children tasted great and that he'd do it again and again

Anonymous 215043

>>214999
Most of the military have non-combat roles you know

Anonymous 215045

Because I haven’t figured out how to stop eating cheese and butter. I’m getting there though.
Coconut oil is pretty close to butter and I like the coconut flavor even in biscuits etc. I haven’t bought butter in a while but I don’t know I might do it again.
Cheese is tough… I like nachos and Mac n cheese so much I eat the both once a week and I need calories, I have an active job. Someone please tell me how to replace it in my diet.
No plan to stop eating eggs. I could probably be convinced if I went to an egg farm but I’ve had chickens and they’re nasty creatures, eggs are their only redeeming quality.

Anonymous 215061

>>215041
Is it me or does that guy sound like a real jerk?

Anonymous 215073

20230120_104316.jp…

>>215045
While I disagree on your opinion of chickens, there are several recipes out there for vegan "cheese". Most of it relies on tapioca starch, nuts and nutritional yeast.

Anonymous 215088

>Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?
No
>Why aren’t you vegan?
I'm not a retard

Anonymous 215096

>Why aren’t you vegan?
my lifestyle requires animal protein, and i like how those products taste too

>Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?

i think humans have the moral obligation to be way kinder to nature than they are, both to give back to the world for the luck we have as an advanced species and also because this mass disruption of the ecosystem will, or more like is, biting us in the ass. but thats what a lot of us including me deserve i guess. i'll deal with my bad nature-related karma in another life most likely, but when i read online discussions about ecology adjacent topics, i'm pretty sure mine won't be the worst karma around

Anonymous 215097

>>214974
>wahh wahh ur a meat eater waah ur immoral
don't care didn't ask having an extra steak today in your honor

>>214976
>It’s hypocrisy to give rights to all humans but not all animals.
And? Placing the needs and concerns of your own family/friends/group before those of others is always "hypocrisy". Hypocrisy isn't some cardinal sin "gotcha" that someone who values their own species over others is gonna be ashamed of and change their ways lol
>oh no not a hypocrite anything but that, please, i'll let my children grow up malnourished and brain damaged from eating a shit bioavailability vegan diet before i'll be a hypocrite

Anonymous 215098

>Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?
Of course. Animals should have way more rights than they have.
>Why aren't you vegan?
Because I am as much animal as they are. Just as they would kill me, I will kill and eat them. In my humanity, I will make their death quick and painless, but I will still kill them.

Anonymous 215154

Screenshot 2023-01…

>>214993
>Humans are supposed to eat meat.
Humans are supposed to face screens in cubicles 8 hours a day too?
It's not about what we are allegedly supposed to do (supposed by whom?), it's just about what we do and don't. There is no need to compare yourself to a phantasmagorical version of reality.
In this reality, not eating animals is easy, costs me close to nothing in terms of effort, time, money, health… Why would I eat meat then?
Everyone is free to do it or not, but hiding your choice behind some weak naturalistic justification is just ridiculous.
>we're not supposed to!
Just take responsibility for your actions.

Anonymous 215160

>>215154
We're supposed to because our bodies are literally made for meat consumption. Our bodies aren't made for looking at a screen, mostly because screens are a human invention and not naturally occurring. You're right that our ancestors didn't look at screens in cubicles- well done. But that was an awful comparison. If you want to not eat animals or animal products then go ahead, but don't argue that it's unnatural for other people to still be eating meat.

Anonymous 215162

Gates-Map.jpg

>>214942
Humans evolve because of meat, veganism is unnatural. https://youtu.be/9Qo9peKk_gQ
>also
Daily reminder that veganism is bullshit promoted by oligarchs.

Anonymous 215197

>>215045
The problem with replacing butter with coconut oil is that coconuts do not grow in colder climates, so coconuts would need to be imported which creates far more pollution that just eating locally produced butter. It's not going to matter that a animal was not used in it's production if animals are dying or being born deformed because the earth is toxic waste dump of petrochemicals.

Anonymous 215206

>>215160
I'm telling you the natural/unnatural isn't a valid argument. We haven't lived naturally in thousands of years. Humanity is intrinsically unnatural. The appeal to nature is a fallacy in this debate.

Anonymous 215208

monki.jpeg

>>214942
every time i see a vegan woman she looks like a 49 year old teenager. It's really discouraging.

Anonymous 215221

>>215160
I'm not a vegan, but I just want to say, eating meat as often and in as high of an amount as we do nowadays (practically every single day) was not the norm for most of human history. If each person lowered the amount to, say, 3 times a week, the demand would fall, and meat production would follow suit to avoid unnecessary losses.

But of course, this expectation is highly unrealistic unless enforced by law. The companies have already shaped our needs through just a couple of generations, and the only way back is by sheer force or an actual meat shortage caused by some calamity or the other.

Anonymous 215233

I'm not vegan because the chickens I get my eggs from live better lives than I do

Anonymous 215262

>>214942
im too poor to afford being a vegan

Anonymous 215264

>>215221
>I'm not a vegan, but I just want to say, eating meat as often and in as high of an amount as we do nowadays (practically every single day) was not the norm for most of human history.
That's true but history is a post-agriculture development. It's completely unknown how common it was in human pre-history. One of humanity's ancestor/sister species, the Neanderthals, are speculated to have gone extinct because the climate changed enough that their almost all meat diet could no longer be met. It has also been speculated that hominid brain development is owed mostly to early hominids having learned to crack bones to eat marrow, which most predators our size can't do. This development of a meat and fat diet was what support rapid population growth, prolonged gestation, larger communities and all the other prerequisites for an evolutionary investment in larger and more social brains in those upright apes, without diminishing the evolutionary push towards intelligence with readily available calories from plant matter. The evolution of this meat centered diet would have been so rapid that teeth and natural weaponry could not keep up with the evolutionary push and so further stone tools were developed in a positive feedback loop.

Anonymous 215294

I'm vegetarian because my mum wouldn't let me go vegan, have been so for the past five years, I try to buy dairy free stuff and free range eggs. The conclusion I've reached over the years is that the animal rights movement should've focused less on veganism and ethics and more on the main problem of animal abuse in factory farms more (in contrast to vague slogans of 'end animal suffering' or even that animals have 'rights', a distinctly human concept). If they'd acknowledged that veganism isn't the only solution, it would have garnered more widespread support and influence. I believe we could have passed many more reforms on factory farming with the support of the masses. But instead now it's mostly conflict and us vs them mentality, I hate it.

Anonymous 215298

>>215294
Conflict-averse reformism is the reason feminism is now synonymous with perverse eunuchs wearing dresses. Animal rights by way of veganism is at least still primarily interested in animal rights.

Anonymous 215299

>>214942
>dont feel like researching how to replace the nutritional value that i'll miss out on from animal products
>schizo about vegan foods containing pesticides/endocrine disruptors
>can't afford a fully vegan diet

>>215097
baste

im unclear about the morality but i place self-preservation above all else

Anonymous 215307

>>215298
I don't agree, I think the belief that you have to be vegan to care about animal rights is what resulted in the widespread apathy + antipathy on this issue of systemic animal abuse, because most people are simply not willing to change their lifestyles that drastically. If we had the masses then legislators and corporations would actually have to start paying attention.
Also, in certain vegan communities there existed a lot of the same cult-like traits that you'll find in tranny communities, endless anger and mockery at 'meat-eaters' and staunch assurance of their own self righteousness. Especially now with meat eating on the rise globally, as countries develop and the population increases, it's just not realistic to continue demanding that everyone go vegan.

Anonymous 215405

>>215097
>And? Placing the needs and concerns of your own family/friends/group before those of others is always "hypocrisy"
tbh I don't view animals as having the same rights/needs as people. I see vegans use a lot of "gotchas," One of them was slavery, basically saying,"Well nobody thought Black people should have the same rights as people. Everyone was okay with that. That's the same thing with animals." It totally misses the point that the reason people considered slavery wrong is that they treated people like animals (treating them as subhuman essentially). Basically removing them of their personhood and demoting them to animal status. It's incomparable, and these "gotchas" annoy me because they come from libed-out white vegans who are typically concerned with racism. I kek at the irony of comparing the plight of black slaves to animals.

Anonymous 215442

Its tricky because vegan food also poses it's own ethical problems. A lot of fruits are imported from countries that have slaves or criminals working in the industry. For example, the avocado trade is apparently fucked with the cartel for some reason

Anonymous 215445

>>215442
Not explicitly a vegan issue, love this argument, like meat eaters can’t scran an avocado

Anonymous 215451

I was vegetarian for 1.5 years and during that time my physical and mental health declined quite a lot. I started to have a severe anemia to the point when it was impossible to stand up without an instant blackout and vertigo. Never had any skin problems before and suddenly I had cystic acne all over the face. I constantly had to squeeze out the pus because each pimple was a constant source of pain. I cut my hair short because it started to fall out a lot and was just all over the place. The thought that I may not be getting enough nutrients lived in my head rent free, all day just thinking about food and how much it can give to my body. And at the same time I thought that everything was fine, that my diet was wonderful, healthy, and doing my body more good than harm. Like, there wasn't even a thought. Until I came across a few posts from radfems about how vegan and vegetarian diets are basically a form of eating disorder in women, which we adopt because of our gender socialization that shapes us to be more empathetic and put other people's suffering before our own.

In my experience, such discussions are quite difficult to find, so I'll list some points from what I read:
>For 99% of all vegetarians, especially vegans, the reason for giving up meat is not a dislike of meat at all, but a pathological feminine socialization that forces them to value the interests of chicken above their own. That is to say, the pressure of a pathologically raised sense of guilt by the misogynistic bastards of the stubborn "greens" who litter the Internet with pictures of skinned carcasses.
>Feminism and vegetarianism are incompatible, because vegetarianism is a kind of adaptive choice (a choice influenced by circumstances, upbringing, and cultural attitudes and passed off as one's own). And also because men use vegetarianism and animal welfare as new levers to influence women, to indoctrinate us into feeling guilty about anything and everything, to control our diet so that, God forbid, we don't become physically stronger than the norm they have established and finally cure our cystitis.
>We are taught all our lives to put ourselves in any place but first. It's also where the men's howl about why it's "feminists" who don't fight for men comes from. And here comes veganism for the simple reason that, once again, it makes women think of anyone and anything but themselves. As long as the patriarchy blooms and smells, it will find more and more ways to oppress or distract women from their own problems.
>A woman is not equal in value to an animal and does not have to apologize to all living and non-living things for the fact of her existence and the fact that she needs some resources to live.
>The average non-wealthy woman must feel guilty about consuming animals and polluting the environment because of her upbringing of heightened empathy for everything. And the fact that huge corporations kill far more red-listed animals than this poor woman eats meat, and those same corporations litter the environment more than a pack of pads and diapers… What's also infuriating is that it's these big industries that sponsor all these schizophrenic campaigns that make already poor women spend more money out of guilt. Isn't that the least bit patriarchal?
>To say that vegan dietary restrictions harm women and support patriarchal myths is not mocking. Mocking is trying to give women another dietary restriction under the guise of candy in a culture of dieting.
>A woman still has to spend time going to doctors, taking tests, studying a lot of information on how to make a menu, what vitamins to take in addition, etc. Again a waste of time and money, which is based on pure female socialization, guilt and caring about anyone but yourself.
>I gave up meat in 2018. It's only now that I realized that I was only covering up the real reason for giving it up by saying that I felt sorry for the animals. In fact, it was a way to punish myself by giving up food for one wrong thing I did. My point is that your desire to give up meat needs to be reflexed - is it really you yourself don't want to eat it, or has shame been forced on you for eating it, or because you're trying to punish yourself for something this way?
>Orthorexia is a proposed eating disorder characterized by an unhealthy obsession with eating "pure" food. Signs of orthorexia: cutting out particular foods and food groups from the diet; obsessive focus on food choice; distress or disgust when in proximity to prohibited foods; exaggerated faith that inclusion or elimination of particular kinds of food can prevent or cure disease or affect daily well-being; moral judgment of others based on dietary choices; persistent belief that dietary practices are health-promoting despite evidence of malnutrition.
>These vegan groups are manipulative, guilt-pressuring, anti-scientific, and filled with more animal dismemberment than slaughterhouses.
>You feel sorry for everyone but yourself and the women around you. All the time you feel like a bad, disgusting predator, as if you personally kill cows and sheep. With this you hate every meat-eater, literally snatching a piece of food from her. You forget about women and think only about animals.
>Women have higher vitamin and mineral needs than men. Young women are not consuming enough iron, calcium, and other vital nutrients lacking in a vegan or vegetarian diet.
>Women are at increased risk of iron-deficiency anemia compared to men due to the monthly blood loss. The iron found predominantly in plants is non-heme iron, which isn’t absorbed as well as the heme iron found in blood and muscle.
>Humiliating a woman who eats meat, telling her she's an animal abuser is misogyny. Shaming a woman for any kind of food she eats when we are in a culture of promoting eating disorders among the female population is misogyny.

So, it took some time for me to think and reflect about this whole thing, in the end I decided to start eating fish and chicken. What I think has happened is that I was somewhat dragged into this all through the severe trauma caused by those films with a real animal torture. I developed a strong aversion to meat taste and texture, the mere thought of meat caused an unpleasant physical reaction in my mouth. I was raised in an abusive family, so hurting others is a pain point for me. The vegetarian diet has given me a strong and pleasant feeling that I am not harming others, relieving me from shame for what I eat. It also gave me the impression that since my existence don't contribute toward harming others, it means I do less evil than other people, so that objectively makes me better than them. What I didn't realize was that when you take into account the harm caused by your actions, you also have to include yourself in the calculation. Now all the problems I listed at the beginning of this post are gone. Even though I still get sick even from the smell of red meat, I am slowly restoring my relationship with intuitive eating and eat whatever my body asks for. I still love animals deeply and cherish every living thing I encounter. But before them, I now love and cherish myself.

I hope this post will help someone whose needs are clouded by her beliefs and thereby harming herself, as was the case with me. I think vegetarianism can benefit a woman, but only when she has not been manipulated into it and has the necessary resources to maintain her health.

Anonymous 215456

In my opinion, the vegans are just and correct. Nobody should eat anything that is abused, that can kill feel pain, etc.

However. I don't care about animals and I don't care about humans. I would probably eat people if there was a legal option. I wouldn't go out of my way. But I don't go out of my way to eat ribs either, and that's because they're expensive. I love ribs though. God I had some ribs yesterday, really fucking good.

Anonymous 215460

I used to be vegan, then vegetarian, and I slowly became pescatarian until I reluctantly started eating meat again. I was meat-free for years, but I realized that veganism contributed to my eating disorder, and I was becoming malnourished, even when I took supplements to make up for it. I stopped talking to my vegan friends after this because I worried they would get angry at me for "giving up" so easy, but I was low-income and trying to find vegan alternatives to everything was like developing OCD symptoms because of my eating disorder.

I do wish that non-meat options were cheaper and easier to access for people who truly believe meat is immoral. I personally consider animal death to be a fact of life, it's not something I'm happy about, but it's inevitable. I think the lies that anti-vegans spread that all farms are just cute happy paradises is to placate the guilt of a lot of meat-eaters. I noticed when I stopped eating meat and I had people ask me why I stopped, I talked to them about the conditions of slaughterhouses and the environmental impact of factory farms. They actually agreed with me, but had a "but…" reason for why they still ate meat.

Anonymous 215465

>>215460
What do vegans have to say about your own farm raised eggs and dairy ? Say I have perfectly happy roaming yard chickens… would you eat their eggs? Say I have my own dairy cow pasture and it's one cow and she has a free and easy life where she and the others aren't constantly calving.. would you eat cheese I made?

Anonymous 215540

>>215451
you're supposed to supplement b12 even as a vegetarian

Anonymous 215548

>>215543
based no-nonsense vegan nutjob.

Love people who think like you, everybody should.

Anonymous 215553

>>215540
Been eating b12 and other supplements for months, trying to figure out what my body needs, nothing changed. I also ate a lot of soy and stuffed myself with all the beans, vegetables and fruits I could get my hands on. Always calculating what kind of food I should eat to get that nutrient and which food I should add so it would absorb better. It really was an eating disorder, one shouldn't waste so much time and resources to figure out how to feed herself properly AND also get no benefits from it in return. Not going down this path again until I'm 100% sure that I can take care of all my needs on this diet. Strongly advise other women to do the same.

Anonymous 215558

>>215553
Must have been tough to starve like that. Your symptoms really do sound like b12 deficiency though, were you taking pseudo b12 from spirulina by any chance ? It's not effective in humans, and it also competes with actual b12 in the intestine.

Anonymous 215577

Mostly nihilism with a dash of related laziness. I think the world and existence is essentially cruel and there's not much hope in changing it. I don't eat much meat at all but my main animal products currently are butter and cheese. I try to buy these from local farm stands but even then I know some suffering was involved. I'm sorry, animals.

Anonymous 215606

>Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?
Absolutely not, this is a completely arbitrary point of view and as such it can be adopted or rejected without any reason whatsoever.

Anonymous 215623

Morality is a spook

If you feel empathy with cows skip the burger, if you dont then enjoy it.

Anonymous 215632

>>215623
Morality is social.
The way people treat other creatures does inform the way you, personally, see them. And you, personally, would use the power of the state to force them to not treat animals in certain ways even if you had no personal attachment or investment in the animal and were not affected at all by that treatment.
Can you watch this youtube travelogue and honestly say otherwise?

Anonymous 215637

5f1.jpg

>>215208
I dunno if I'd agree with that. Nasim was just a year shy of 40 when she shot up YouTube HQ and she looked like a late 20s carnist.

Anonymous 215639

>>215465
(AYRT) Some are okay with it, some aren't. I know "veggans" (vegans that eat eggs from local farmers chickens) exist, and I was one for awhile when I was "transferring out" of veganism for health reasons.

Anonymous 215709

nasim.jpg

>>215637
I would consider Nasim an exception to the rule, I think it's mostly due to her good genetics that still looked youthful and built a good muscle mass despite her diet. If I cared about the topic of veganism, I would've made a collage of the skeletal looking vegans I've came across.

Anonymous 215711

>>215558
I looked into it, and it was cyanocobalamin, but through this search I also learned that the way of consumption affects absorption. Chewable forms give more b12, and I was swallowing pills the whole time. Given my problems with the digestive system, that may well be the culprit, thank you for pointing me in that direction.

>>215646

>>215703
I think it's more about the lack of knowledge about your body and understanding how it works. More reason to do a proper research first before jumping in just to stop the feeling of guilt and "be a good person".
>Do you feel embarrassed having such an evolutionary failure of a body?
I do, actually! But it's about having an ADHD and making impulsive decisions without thinking things through, which lead to this situation. So I'm sharing my experience hoping that someone can learn from it and not hurt themselves the way I did.

Anonymous 215722

pure sex (12).jpg

Sweet tender boy before vegetarianism…

Anonymous 215723

steve sees god whi…

Same man post vegetarianism… still think abstaining from meat is the right choice? His wife peers on in the background, unaware of his seeing of demons.

Anonymous 215993

>>215934
I'm afraid that changing your diet does nothing for the animals or the planet, this capitalism train won't stop even if you jump off it. The big corps will only switch to more humane methods when exploitation becomes less profitable than anything else, and that won't happen even if you shame all the women in the world for what they eat. In the end, being vegetarian or vegan mostly comes down to feeling good about yourself rather than making big changes. I understand that you're angry about what humanity does to animals and it would be great if everybody just stopped and changed their ways. But please don't take your anger on random women, guilt tripping them into veganism is a terrible way to react to the situation, we don't have much privilege or power to change things even for ourselves, let alone others. And food shaming those who affected by ED more than anyone else is just mean. Let's support each other and our choice to prioritize our own needs, and shame the fuck out of the men for their consuming and oppressive habits instead.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not going against being vegan and I do want to get back to giving up animal products, but only this time there should be no guild or knowledge gaps involved. We must change for healthy reasons, not because others have showered us with shame and guilt.
Also don't forget that different people indeed have different circumstances, not only esoteric health issues, but also problems with finances and with access to resources. ily anon please don't be mad

Anonymous 215994

im not vegan and while i get that some vegans can be unreasonable they will never be as obnoxious as people complaining about them or bragging about loving meat to piss them off. they sound like cocaine addicts having a manic depressive episode

Anonymous 215995


Anonymous 216012

>>215221
not just not eating meat, but eating every day wasn't the norm for most of human history. feast or famine was the norm and our bodies are designed for that sort of diet. fasting is actually very good for you, I recommend fasting a day a week

Anonymous 216033

Meat is healthy and you are designed to eat it.

Farming meat is less damaging to the environment than modern crop farming

The meat I eat and most of the meat in the west is ethically made and compared to wild animals many of the farmed animals have okay lives.

burger tasty

Anonymous 216088

>>215465
I've seen the argument that the frequency of laying and the size of the eggs produced is a result of specific breeding practices and causes some sort of suffering to the animal. I have no idea if it's true but it is the main argument I've seen from vegans who are opposed to eating eggs even from backyard free range chickens.

Anonymous 216223

>>216033
You also are designed to pop babies once you get your periods, do you do it?

Anonymous 216229

>>216223
maybe I should've

Anonymous 216247

>>216223
physically speaking it would be more ideal. having children at a younger age produces healthier children and your body is better equipped to recover more quickly from the stress of childbirth. that's ignoring financial reality, tho. the one thing you absolutely should not do is take hormonal birth control, it plays havoc on your system.

Anonymous 216278

1648769218024.jpg

the nonas in this thread are based

veganism is an inherently radical feminist issue. female animals are exploited for their sexual characteristics, constantly raped and impregnated to create eggs and milk then killed when they cannot breed anymore.

if you purchase/consume animal products you are supporting of this sex based violence, just like if you consume pornography you are a supporter of sex based violence as well.

anyway have a good day. drink some water and tell someone you love them.

Anonymous 216280

>>216247
Not at 14

Anonymous 216286

>>216278
While veganism is superior when it comes to animal cruelty and female animals are exploited because of their reproductive capabilities, I do need to point out that male chickens are literally ground up when they are just one day old. So it's not just female animals that are exploited.

Anonymous 216288

>>216278
yeah right
and not at all guilt tripping women, not even making them feel wrong and evil just for maintening healthy and strong body, not shaming women for not wnating to live a life with extra steps men would never
tote radfem, uhuh

Anonymous 216298

The thing I dont get is how being vegan really changes anything.. it doesn't matter what I do. Even if I don't buy the milk or meat someone else will. It makes no difference if you eat it or you don't.

I think we'd have more success experimenting with labgrown milk and meat. Being vegan seems like a dead-end endeavor. To every vegan i ask this: why the hell isnt your major bioengineering???

Why aren't you thinking of ways to change how everyone consumes meat, in a way thats easy to sell? Being vegan sounds so bizarre and removed from reality. At least if you're experimenting with labgrown meat you're trying to change the problem from the ground up.

In all honesty being vegan sounds lazy in comparison. Its a reason flex n be self righteous about your diet but what is that really accomplishing?

I get that it's a comfort thing,and avoiding food that disturbs you but not hoisting it onto other people like its a solution to something.

I've read that vegans wouldn't even eat cheese or butter or eggs from a humane homestead situation, and it leaves me with more questions than answers.

Anonymous 216302

>>216278
This seems like a bit of a false equivalence to me, animal "sex based violence" has nothing to do with human sex based violence for just about everyone on the planet. Certainly not comparable to pornography production/consumption.

>drink some water and tell someone you love them.

I think I'll drink a glass of milk instead.

Anonymous 216324

>>216288
You don't need meat to be healthy, you know.

Anonymous 216363

>>215993
>capitalism too strong, just embrace it teeheehee
>Pls don't change your consoomer self, you're minuscule and it means nothing
>Don't you dare make me feel guilt and effort, too painful, let us consoom in bliss
You are either a child or a corpo PR nona.
Only thing I agree with in what you say: everyone is a work in progress.

Anonymous 216365

image.png

>>216278
based ecofeminist
>>216302
See this book and the other by the same author: Pornography of meat. The way meat is regarded in our societies is very close to the way women are objectified. The book isn't perfect but gives food for thought.
>>216286
Indeed
>>216298
This is the most stupid but true answer: you can't expect to change anything if you can't change yourself. If you can't be exemplary, then who else can be?
>Why aren't you thinking of ways to change how everyone consumes meat, in a way thats easy to sell?
You're the problem, not the other people, stop wasting time thinking up ways to convince them (or thinking you or other people should be thinking about way to convince them), while you should convince yourself since it's the only thing you have power over.
Lab meat is not there yet, what do you do in the meantime? Veganism and vegetarianism are a proper solution to the dozens of animals you're not currently buying/killing.
You can't wait the perfect solution to act, otherwise you'll never do.

Anonymous 216388

>>216278
the reason feminism will keep getting hijacked by not only trannies but by literally every other group in existence as demonstrated here is because women can't get over this mentality, you can't go anywhere with this movement if just keep helping others while they give you nothing back.

Anonymous 216401

>>216365
Accept most people aren't and dont want to be. They never have. So what is the point? When has big agriculture ever slowed down? Hasnt it just gotten bigger? Rofl your exemplary clown ass got onboard with a tiktok fad and joined a movement to give your terrestrial existence meaning. Really though it's just a diet, and you do it for social points. That is literally all I hear

There is a really low chance you actually care about them, if standing in line for mindless social approval is your idea of activism. Youre like every other zoomer appropriating something people have been doing for years. Oh my God mindlessly sipping your retarded appropriation kool-aid. When the fuck will you think for yourself? You're just doing what other people told you thinking being a mindless bitch will feed your ego but it looks like more of the same. If regurgitation is as far as you take it, you sound like every other vegan dimwit. Do you feed you cat vegan too?? You effing loons will do anything for approval I swear

Anonymous 216403

>>216365
>The way meat is regarded in our societies is very close to the way women are objectified.
If the argument is that the objectification of animals sends subliminal messages about the objectification of women then I'm not sure I buy it. Men can't breed with cows or chickens, and I reckon most of them don't have a sadistic desire to subjugate cows and chickens for sexual gratification. In fact, I reckon most men don't think very much about it at all, especially not from this angle, so I suppose the subliminal messaging isn't working very well. Also, both men and women benefit equally from the consumption of meat (without getting into how big or small this benefit actually is).

>>214977
>>214988
>>214996
>>215005
I think this is the most compelling string of posts I've read on this entire website.

>>214997
>A right to life is inherent to a sentient being itself outside of a society.
What makes you think this is true? Do you think this is a "natural" right? The natural evidence suggests otherwise; this "right" is constantly being violated in nature, and not always necessarily because the victim is being eaten. Even domestic cats kill for fun, but I don't think you'd say your cat had acted immorally for bringing you home a dead bird or mouse.

Perhaps you'd say your cat didn't know any better, or that morality doesn't apply to the actions of your cat or any non-human animal. So is it morally permissible when a fox kills a chicken despite having a surplus of food? Would it be morally permissible for a human to do the same thing? What's the difference?

Is it morally permissible for chimps to kill and cannibalise each other? Bear in mind that we are very genetically similar to chimps. If it's morally permissible for chimps to do this, when (as in, at what point of our evolution) did it stop being morally permissible for humans (or our nearest ancestors) to do it, and why?

>>214995
>Animals kill each other so let’s do it too?
I know you're being rhetorical, but why not? Personally my propensity for empathy tells me not to cause undue suffering, but that's all it is. I get a bad feeling when I think about harming an animal unnecessarily, but I don't think it can be a question of morality, because it concerns animals which in my opinion must be amoral beings. Many animals also exhibit empathy, including chimps, yet it doesn't stop them from killing other animals, or even each other. Humans aren't even close to being the most murderous animal in terms of intraspecies killings.

Anonymous 216408

>Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?
Nope

Anonymous 216418

>>216403
> Men can't breed with cows or chickens, and I reckon most of them don't have a sadistic desire to subjugate cows and chickens for sexual gratification.
You're missing the point which is that men want dominion over these things. Control in general. Sex is only one motivation to feel powerful. Try having a conversation with a dairy farmer and see how they talk about cows like women, even naming them women's names while they inseminate, breed and kill them to eat. In the sense that moids believe consuming meat will make them powerful, they feel the same way about "consuming" women via sexual intercourse.

Anonymous 216429

>>215019
>>216388
This is the only thing that needs to be said.

Women being "compassionate" to the point it weakens them so much they can't defend themselves only results in making your victim status slightly more comfortable.

Anonymous 216433

>>216388
>>216429
Strongly agree and I'm tired of seeing it pushed that we should be more compassionate and fair-minded.

We shouldn't be predatory but we should be absolute ruthless and stop hesitating over whats fair and what isnt. Problem is scrotes will look for every reason to call you unfair and EVEN predatory or evil, even when you're minding you're own business miles away. Simply for having your own prerogative.

If you can't embrace how ruthless, DETACHED and indifferent to "them" you are, people will emotional-labor-bait you into a coffin for the rest of your life. Tell you all the reasons you're responsible for things "gone wrong", for them or for something out in society unrelated to you or your life.

This is THE single most infuriating manipulative horseshit you will ever experience as a woman. The conniving shitty need to worm into your head and blame you, gaslight you for everything.

Cut that shit off like its a cancerous mutated appendage for good. Chop it with a meat cleaver. I'm not even joking. Rip that shit out or you will live a lie your whole damn life for pigs who were going to use you, leave your truth out without telling you, steal from you and/ or cut you down anyway.

Anonymous 216544

>>214942
burgers mainly

Anonymous 216546

>>216365

I started reading this. So far, there is no sensible argument in it against women eating meat, only endlessly pointing out that meat consumption has been and is associated with maleness and the exclusion of women.

The text is rather disorganized.

Some of the quote she references are great though.
>He handled my breast as if he were making a meatball. —Mary Gordon, Final Payments

I hope he added breadcrumbs and garlic. Some of the stuff she has penned is mind blowing.

>Through butchering, animals become absent referents. Animals in name and body are made absent as animals for meat to exist. Animals’ lives precede and enable the existence of meat. If animals are alive they cannot be meat. Thus a dead body replaces the live animal. Without animals there would be no meat eating, yet they are absent from the act of eating meat because they have been transformed into food.


How profound. I don't think I can finish this book.

Anonymous 216548

>>216418
From the book:
>The oppressor then violates this being by
object-like treatment: e.g., the rape of women that denies women freedom to say no, or the butchering of animals that converts animals from living breathing beings into dead objects. This process allows
fragmentation, or brutal dismemberment, and finally consumption.

I feel like this a stretch. If I dismember a pineapple plant to eat the pineapple, the same phrasing could largely be applied.

Anonymous 216549

>>214942
Many animals eat animals though.

Anonymous 216552

>>214942
because the ones pushing veganism are weak moids with glasses in a lab trying to run social experiments and shit. it's not meant to be healthy, it's meant to be a fad that increases dependency on the agricultural industry. eat whatever you want, it's your own life but I'm not gonna cut out meat just because some random moid in a government building wants me to.
>the animals
the only animals I care about are my 2 cats and neither of them are vegans.

Anonymous 216557

>>216027
>no ethical consumption under capitalism
Never said that. You can consume ethically under capitalism, but don't expect capitalism to change its ways of providing just because you changed your ways of consuming is what I'm saying. Basically, in my opinion, you as one person make no difference for this beast.

The link you provided makes it sound like you're actually making a huge change, one saved animal per day, etc. The problem is that this article does not provide any proper references for making these statements. Like, how exactly am I saving this animal? Are there any data or research that provides a real correlation between one person stopping consuming and how it affects the market? This article references another article which references another article and all of them mostly talk about two things: 1) theoretical possibility to make a change, but only as a part of a bigger crowd and only in a long term run; 2) consumption of the meat is declining.
So, the first point is against you personally saving anyone, your choices can only matter if you are part of a large wave of consumers. And I see how perhaps if your cause has a huge number of followers, it will change the amount of animal products produced. But it still looks like a kind of a stretch and theorizing, nothing even close to a specific digit of your personal influence from the vegan calculator.
The second point talks about reducing consumption. This is a good thing, but it may not really have much impact, because consumption does not equal production. The company continues to produce the same amount of meat, the stores continue to buy the same amount of meat because displays of food items sell much better when they look full, and if something doesn't sell because of reduced consumption, at best the store recycles that meat and sells it as part of another dish for example, and at worst it throws away the unsold goods. While the former is preferable in terms of profit, the latter is still happening in huge numbers, and it's crazy. Again, it's more showing that your choice has no direct effect on production in any way.

Here's more specific data on meat production and consumption, so you can accurately track how things change over the years and base your arguments around it.
https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production
Here you can see that production has decreased slightly over the last couple of years, but as of now it is difficult to say whether it will become a trend, given that before there were also decreases after peaks, followed by another increase. Let's hope for the better anyway. The graphs also show well the decline in meat production in China after the reform by the government. It looks like in the near future other countries will introduce a system of restrictions on meat production after reaching a certain peak, which will stop the constant upward trend.
I may be pessimistic since I tend to believe that such great changes are created only by those in power, but if you are more comfortable believing in change at the expense of everyone's personal accomplishments, then I won't discourage you. In that case, vegan movement needs to constantly recruit new followers, and this is better done through positive interaction experiences (like the one I had with this lovely nonita >>216028 ) than through shitting on people and being a big meanie. Because from the perspective of people for whom there is no direct connection between one person giving up meat and saving the lives of animals at production - the anger of the person who thinks there is a direct connection is not understandable. So a mutual understanding might not be reached, therefore no new recruits, therefore no change.

>>216363
No-no, while I don't believe in the big impact of a little person, I'm not agitating against changing your consumption habits. Even if your choice doesn't change anything in the lives of the animals, it still makes a big difference in your life: you stop participating in the system of cruelty, it makes you feel good about yourself, your morals are not suffering, you can be more in peace and generate more love, plus you're more aware about this whole topic and can spread the world and start discussions. I too experienced all these nice changes, but along with them I also got some bad consequences, which was hard to connect with the vegetarian diet because "how can something so good bring me harm." That's why I talk about being thoughtful and not rushing into it, because getting into movement does require an effort to study the broad topic of nutrition and health. There's nothing antagonizing about my position, really.

Also, the belief that by stopping the consumption of animal products you directly end animal suffering leads to attacks on people for not doing the same. All of this only creates negativity for you and others, drains your activist energy and has no effect on the lives of animals in this industry. I think views spread much better through discussions than through quarrels.

Anonymous 216558

>>216418
Then if we focus solely on solving "the men" problem first, "the animal industry" problem will solve itself immediately afterwards. And so we stopped channeling our campaigning power into veganism and started promoting feminism, yay.

Anonymous 216562

I don't want to be malnourished and sick all the time and plants can't provide a complete protein. Animal organs are the single healthiest thing you can consume with the most nutrients out of any other food.

And haven't you thought about plants rights?
Maybe you should kill yourself if you are so against killing other organisms.

Anonymous 216570

>>216548
You're missing the logic. Animals aren't "for food" any more than women are "for" sex and procreation. A pineapple isn't a sentient, breathing thing. A cow is. A chicken is. A pig is. They want to live and be free of rape and imprisonment as much as women do. The objectification of women in the sexual and reproductive realm is comparable to the objectification of animals in the food realm because both of these group's beings are appropriated in worldwide industries dedicated to their reproductive demise and in many cases at the cost of their lives. It's reproductive appropriation, telling another living being what they can and cannot do with their body, or forcing them to comply, or raping them. Like the war industry relies on women pumping out children for the nationalistic machine, the meat and dairy industry relies on the reproductive exploitation of female animals through forced impregnation with the justification that it is a necessary human right to rape them, steal their children from them and then consume their children. A cow being forced into a stall, held still with machinery, then raped and impregnated by a machine is how most people get the milk and cheese they love so much. It's hypocritical to be feminist and not vegan if you claim to care about animals at all.

Anonymous 216575

>>216278
>constantly raped and impregnated to create eggs

You do know that egg production happens without a rooster, right? The only difference is that the eggs won't be fertilized without a male of the species. Most people who keep backyard chickens for eggs don't have a rooster because they're assholes

Anonymous 216583

It's nice to have a proper debate for once in there. Thank you to all contributors, even the morons I disagree with, I'm learning some things.

Anonymous 216634

1667763301072.png

>>216583
Even the rudest, stupidest nona here is caring and brilliant, and argues from a place of sincere wanting to help her fellow woman. You all are gems. do not forget that.

Anonymous 216637

>>216324
personally I do
and vegan diet, if we are speaking about op post, excludes much much more than meat

Anonymous 216793

>>216570
I missed nothing. The "logic" is just a bunch of emotional arguments and subjective morality.

Anonymous 216835

>>214942
What does veganism even have to do with feminism at all? It's people like this that turn genuine movements into cults that turn off other people from it that cause it to die. You don't care about animals or being healthy, you care about sabotaging women's rights.

Anonymous 216851

>>215711
You're welcome, I'm glad I could help. If you want to follow a special diet again though please see a doctor, malabsorption is no joke.

Anonymous 216893

>>216835
You do know that crystal cafe is a girl board and not specifically a feminist board, right? Many of the users here just also happen to be feminist.

Anonymous 216958

I wont live forever and neither do animals, let me enjoy their flesh and eggs.

Anonymous 216965

>>216958
You could justify killing people with that logic

Anonymous 216994

Go watch the live vegan woman steam https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDyJ7qCWB4g

Anonymous 216996


Anonymous 217372

>>216278
it's an animal, why would i give a shit what happens to it?

Anonymous 217557

>>216893
If you don't support women's rights then why are you on crystal cafe of all places?? Your comment does little to help your predicament since you've essentially just admitted that you don't care about women, which means the reason you're pushing veganism is for subversive purposes.

Anonymous 217662

I still occasionally indulge in eggs (sorry) but I think for the average person the indulgence is plenty. We need to stop subsidizing this shit, especially meat. If the average retard wants ground beef they should be paying $20/lb for it, not four or five bucks. From a resource standpoint it should be the ultimate in luxury foods yet society bends over backwards to make it affordable.

Anonymous 217665

My main shift to vegetarianism then veganism was caused by learning to cook. I realized most of the flavor in everything I ate came from oils, spices, and vegetables. The only reason I liked meat was because it was a good salt/garlic/fat delivery system and once I grasped that it was very easy to cut it out.

Anonymous 217674

>>217662
You are literally just helping rich white men continue to expand their monopoly on farmland by actively wanting meat prices to rise. You do not care about anyone other than yourself and your fad diets.

Anonymous 217675

>>217669
>>216965
Not all animals are the same. A cricket is not the same as a slug and a slug is not the same as a cat. They have different levels of consciousness, awareness, and different roles in our ecosystem. Animals are not the same as people and equating the two is being exceedingly disingenuous for the sake of gaslighting others and pushing your own views. If you're unironically equating all organisms together as holding the same level of sanctity then you might as well become Jainist and starve yourself.

Anonymous 217702

>>217665
that seems backwards, a little bit of meat adds quite a lot of flavor to a dish. you're also omitting the main benefit of meat, protein. useful animal proteins, not incomplete vegetable ones.

and animal fat is better than vegetable fat. it's not animal fat that contributes to heart disease, it's the overabundance, the almost ubiquitous inclusion of sugars in everything. but even worse than the sugars are the artificial sweeteners. you're body tastes something sweet and produces insulin to absorb glucose, but no glucose is found to be absorbed. this leads to diabetes.

Anonymous 217717

>>217675
>They have different levels of consciousness, awareness, and different roles in our ecosystem.
You mean like humans?

Anonymous 217746

>>217702
where do i go to read more about basic nutrion lol

Anonymous 217747

>>217674
??
Almost all animals are grain fed. If you’re trying to downsize the agricultural sector then go vegan.

Anonymous 217748


Anonymous 217752

>>217702
>muh nutrition
Didn't once mention it, but I'll bite. Even if you continue to eat meat it is typically overconsumed. I bet the average American could cut their meat consumption 60-70% with no negative health impacts. The only people who can justify increased meat use in their diet are those who get barely any like a 3rd worlder slave. Most vegetarian and vegan diets recommend varied protein sources. It's not like I'm doing nothing but drinking water mixed with pea powder.
The flavor point while true you are exaggerating. How many dishes actually let the meat speak for itself? Fuck all that's how many. Most meat recipes are literally "take some nice meat then completely inundate it in garlic powder and salted butter." You can't possibly think me marinating tofu in something contributes less positive flavor than that.

Anonymous 217762

tumblr_a870fe70574…

I just don't think I'm any better than animals, spiritually speaking. I have a great love and care for animals, however, I also believe that humans trying to be "above" and "better" and "more advanced" than other species is what got us in this mess we call living now.

However, I also personally try to limit the cruelty of the food I consume in every way I can, and plan on it moreso when I have my own home and am able to fish, raise chickens for eggs, and grow my own food. I also do not consume dairy in any capacity first of all because the dairy industry is unnatural and disturbing, and my husband and I can't really handle dairy anyway.

But honey from a local beekeeper? Leather goods that will last a lifetime because I take the time to care for them? That is the more environmentally healthy choice. All of these chemical laden vegan foods and "leathers" are not doing anything for the environment.

We ALL need to be eating less meat, and more beans, squash, and other vegetables.

It's about balance, and overloading my liver with vitamin pills because my diet isn't sufficient enough ain't it, chief.

Anonymous 217783

>>217752
the average american could probably cut their overall food consumption by 60-70%, with only positive health impacts. saying that meat only serves as a vehicle for other flavors is downright, deliberately ignorant. most meat recipes are not take meat and douse it in crap. the flavor of meat speaks for itself.

let's take 2 different pasta sauces. a vegetarian one: onion, garlic, tomatoes, red/yellow peppers, spinach, then some spices, basil, oregano, salt, black pepper. it's a tasty recipe. a meat based one is very similar: onions, garlic, tomatoes, (peppers, but I'd probably skip them, adding more flavors isn't necessarily good) ground beef, then some spices, basil, oregano, salt, black pepper and then I like to add a little fennel, it goes really well with ground beef. these are two entirely different sauces that taste completely different despite having the same base, onions, garlic and tomatoes and then having similar spices. I've used these two sauces to make lasagna, as well, and no one would ever confuse the vegetarian one for the one with meat.

Anonymous 217790

I think veganism is just stupid, idk why vegetarianism went out of fashion, you dont kill animals but you still get your natural b12 through eggs and the benefits of dairy, its the best of both worlds

Anonymous 217791

>>217790
>idk why vegetarianism went out of fashion
this I swear vegetarianism used to be the more popular choice

Anonymous 218626

>>217790
>I don't eat meat, I just support an industry where females are repeatedly impregnated and separated from their babies, who become veal and nuggets
Vegetarians are the asexuals of their community, taking credit for a cause they don't even actually belong to

Anonymous 218640

Veganism is the most stupid psyops ever devised.

Animal protein and fats are of better quality and better absorbed by your digestive system. Your average meat also contains more minerals than your average plant, with calcium being the sole exception. On vitamins, it is a draw in most cases. 100 grams of beef is more nutritious than 150 grams of rice + 150 grams of beans.

I hope none of you are vegan.

Anonymous 218645

>>218641
Post your bony arm.

Anonymous 218646

>>218641
Imagine being vegan. Couldn't be me.
You are what you eat, and if your diet is shit, well..

Anonymous 218650

>>218649
god you're so retarded. i see you shill on all the fucking imageboards like you're in some fucking cult trying to convert people. go back to /r9k/ with your vegan threads.

Anonymous 218651

>>218649
My dear, if you are morally inclined to underfeed yourself, then go ahead, knock yourself out. So long as you feel good, right? And when you talk about "coronaries" and "colon cancer", the cause of that is cheap, processed meat, and a low fiber diet. And that's not what i'm advocating for here.

I know that i came out too hard, but everything i said was correct. And i didn't even mention other stuff, like Omega-3 of vitamin D, of which most people are deficient. So here is some more free dietary info for you to do what you feel like with it:

Plant sources of Omega-3 are of very low bio absorption. The best sources are oily fish, like salmon (though not sardines due to their high Omega-6 content, which causes an imbalance).

The type of Vitamin D present in plants is usually D2, which is also of low absorption. Ideally what you want is Vitamin D3, which, you guessed it.. And it is far better absorbed by your digestive system.

Anonymous 218652

>>218651
And i forgot to mention that organic eggs are also an acceptable source of Omega 3.

Anonymous 218662

im not vegan but tbh i admire their strength of spirit and how much they believe in a cause. yeah they can be annoying and wrong about many things but discipline and caring about something other than yourself are rare things so id say overall i prefer them to "borger tasty" hylics

Anonymous 218674

>>214942
How do you feed your cats op? If you're a fucking vegan and you try to own a cat I strongly believe you should get the rope.

Anonymous 218677

>>218674
Why are you assuming everyone owns shit rats? It's like asking "how do you feed your snake? Do you feed them cute little Guinea pigs? HUH??"

Anonymous 218705

>>214942
Because no matter what you eat, you are harming the world, directly or indirectly. Not to mention the way vegan foods are made aren't that better, and the fact that a propaganda is clearly being pushed by greedy vegan companies. The more you think about these kinds of things, the more depressing it gets.

Plus meat tastes good.

Anonymous 218884

>>218662
Even ignorant "borger tasty hylics" are ironically doing better with their diet than vegans.

People need to understand something once and for all: Human beings did not evolve to eat grains.

If you are eating grains and derivatives (you should consider any type of seed oil toxic for you), you are doing it wrong. Just stop. And no i won't elaborate further.

Get your carbs from root vegetables (potatoes, carrots, even onions).

Anonymous 218887

>>218677
>calls cats shit rats
>hates animals yet pushes veganism
literal moid confirmed.

Anonymous 218888

>>218884
>evolution
>humans weren't meant to eat grains
The ancient Egyptian diet consisted mostly of bread. I'm not a vegan either but diet and human biology is not simple and you can't boil it down to all grains being objectively bad without exception for all people, you're acting arguably just as bad as the vegans because you're doing to grains what they do to meat regardless of circumstance.

Anonymous 218896

>>218888
And so did the Chinese through all of their history, they mostly ate rice, and they spent most of their history getting their shit pushed in by steppe nomads who ate mostly meat and dairy.

Grains are peasant/slave food.

Trust me (i'm not going to write a dissertation here), if there is one thing you should eliminate from your diet, it is grains and derivatives. Substitute whatever you were consuming in your diet that is of grain origin by root vegetables. Except don't consume flours of root vegetable origin either. Also, root vegetables have more dietary fiber than even whole grains, which is good for your gut and doesn't spike insulin as much.

I'm telling all of you this for your own good, do with the information that i'm giving you as you will.

Anonymous 218909

>>218884
that is true, however i wasn't talking about which diet is better, but rather what kind of person i like more

Anonymous 218915

>>218887
I'm the cat hate anon and I'm not vegan lol, I was just reacting to that anon's question because it was stupid.

Anonymous 218919

>>218896
Another anon here, thanks for the information. I've become so used to eating pasta, bread or rice on a daily basis that it's hard to imagine a meal without any of these 3 components. But I've started noticing that on days where I mostly eat grains and grain-based products, I feel bad and start craving vegetables and protein of some kind. It's like my body telling me it's wrong to ingest so much grain on a single day. Your post is my sign to look up why that's the case and change my diet once and for all.

Anonymous 218938

1402739721976.jpg

It is impossible to be a real "vegan" as animal products are too useful and necessary to remove from one's life entirely. Animals die for our electronics too.

Anonymous 218959

everything-but-the…

>>218951
>I'll just avoid the products that use animal byproducts!
Yeah, good luck with that.
No really. Good luck, it's not like car shops are going to give you an ingredient list of what's in your tires and whether they're all synthetic or contain some animal parts. Also, a lot of industrial machinery uses lubricants from animal fats….

It is impossible to be truly "vegan" though you can become a vegetarian and accept that some things like killing insects, intentionally or otherwise, are inevitable.

Anonymous 218974

You must think too lowly of yourself to be even entertain the notion that you are equal to animals. Likewise, if human rights could be extrapolated to the point that nothing should be subjugated, then it might be worthwile to come up with a framework that wouldn't be ripped appart by the "slippery slope".

Anonymous 218977

>>218974
This is another good way to look at it, yeah.

Anonymous 219023

>>218896
Yeah and the mongols mogged everyone, even other step nomads. Also no shit that a diet composed entirely of gruel when you're in a fucking war is going to end badly for you. You're really cherry picking with your examples here to push "grains le BAD" when it's not that simple.

Anonymous 219024

>>218974
>You must think too lowly of yourself to be even entertain the notion that you are equal to animals.

Either that or the person is from India.

Anonymous 219114

not fond of animals and also not of people. believing we are above animals intellectually is fair, anything else, not so much.
most people aren't even smart anyways, way more than an animal sure, but ehh, im rambling here.
>kills to survive
>pack mentality
>hierarchical
>needs sex
>easily threatened
>prone to violence
>strong survival instincts
applies to animals as well as humans.
our emotional world might be more complex but we clearly struggle to manage it so maybe itd be better if we kept it simpler. complexity doesnt necessarily mean more functional, or whatever other parameter is used to determine something is above something else.

Anonymous 219120

Trying some vegan “replacements” cause I was recently diagnosed with IBS and lmao they are so disgusting. Absolutely no.

Anonymous 219124

>>219007
You're right that the information is incorrect, though they used to be made of horse hair, not pig hair(???) Which, albeit non-vegan, isn't necessarily harmful to the horse either.

Anonymous 219184

>>219120
plant-based alternatives really are a lottery, recently i've tried 4 brands for nuggets (2 plant-based, 2 chicken) and the vegan ones were both the worst and the best out of them. still rate the best ones 6/10 at most. i guess i'll just learn to cook like a normal person until i return to my home country with 10/10 chicken nuggies

Anonymous 219213

>>219120
Try more mint in your diet. Peppermint is great for IBS, peppermint tea worked perfectly for me but also make sure you're not too stressed.

Anonymous 219233

The only ethical way to consume food is to grow it yourself or buy it from local farmers markets.

Anonymous 219398

>>219120
for ibs cut out processed stuff as much as possible, it's loaded with sweeteners and all sorts of junk. if you're in the mood for bread make your own. also I'll sing the praises of intermittent fasting type diets, having an 8 hour window where you're allowed to eat and a 16 hour one where you're forbidden helps better schedule your day and cuts out random snacking - the snack you end up skipping is usually something bagged and ultra processed.

Anonymous 219403

40C2651D-1C66-4A64…

haha meat so yummy yum yum

Anonymous 219824

I hope that lab-grown meat will soon be commercially available…

Anonymous 219853

one word: bacon

Anonymous 220125

Go vegan

Anonymous 220227

okay fine I’ll go vegan

Anonymous 220233

because avoiding animal-sourced ingredients in everything you buy is too hard (i'm too stupid to do that)

Anonymous 220238

>>220233
Why not just avoid straight-up meat? Still better than not avoiding it

Anonymous 220239

>>220238
i already do (this makes me a vegetarian afaik)

Anonymous 220244

>>220229
No offense but this looks like shit

Anonymous 220354

>>219824
Same. I'm also excited for the day when it becomes affordable. Imagine if all those poor ass 3rd world countries that commit the most abominable kinds of animal abuse could easily switch to this.
I still eat mean but find it pretty gross, being able to eat it without all the gross bits and without it coming from a real animal would be a relief.

Anonymous 220409


Anonymous 220414

>>220409
Delicious

Anonymous 220415

>>220354
Arent most 3rd world countries vegetarians because they cant afford meat?

Anonymous 220432

>>220415
I live in a 3rd world country and here meat is cheaper than any type of vegan or vegetarian alternative.

Anonymous 220434

>>214951
Okay Mr. Mengle.

Anonymous 220436

>>220415
Eating less meat than your average American is the norm,not veg since meat is usually the cheapest protein aside from countries with lentils in high supply (but even then if you want more bang for your buck when it comes to minerals you eat meat as a poor person for nutrition as lentils don't replace everything)

Anonymous 220924

>>220432
Even rice beans and lentils?

Also does price make it ethical? If human meat was cheap would that make it okay?
Watch videos online of “name the trait vegan argument “. I can’t beat it so I’m vegan :)

Anonymous 220929

>>220924
Poor people in my country routinely have to eat lentils and rice and they hate it and are truly miserable. The little kids in particular hate them and are traumatized by it. Being vegan and enjoying it truly is a privileged 1st worlder thing.

Anonymous 220930

1059069412-2356267…

>>220927
cow milk really is very cruel. I am not a vegan or vegetarian but I have cut milk out of my diet for moral reasons.

the cows are basically raped with implements to keep them pregnant 24/7 in little metal runs, and when their babies are born the babies are taken away immediately to be slaughtered for veal and the mother impregnated again. The mother either has to be pregnant or recently so in order to produce milk. as a woman that kind of dystopian horror is all I need to not participate in the dairy market.

Of any animal product on the moral scale, it's pretty heinous and in particular in its abuse of female members of the species.

Anonymous 220933

>>220930
Billions of male(yes I know) chicks are thrown into blenders or suffocated to death when they are days old…. Eggs are mean too >>220929
>traumatized

Think of the animals too. I really do care about human and animal rights and welfare but eating a bland meal isn’t getting your throat slit.
It’s also incredibly hypocritical to say that you are a victim while you are victimizing others.

Anonymous 220934

>>220933
Their daily suffering ins't "eating a bland meal". These are kids born in poverty and raised in poverty who don't understand why they are forced to eat the same thing over and over again, have no variety in their diet, and fail to meet milestones because they are severely malnourished. We hear stories daily about kids fainting in school from hunger and malnourishment, and the national average height for kids has decreased because they don't get enough nutrition to grow.
Imagine being a comfy 1st worlder and telling poor kids "eat rice and beans! You don't have it bad". Truly a privileged 1st worlder opinion. You don't even know how bad these people have it, because you have never seen anybody live through hunger and poverty like they have. You're disgusting.

Anonymous 220944

>>220936
It's hard to see what he's even doing?
>>220930
I would also add that cows live 15-20 years naturally but dairy cows live 2.5 - 6 years because they stop producing milk and are killed as soon as they don't meet their quota. The argument that "it doesn't kill them" doesn't even really hold up.

Anonymous 220945

>>220933
>male(yes I know)
lmao
I want to stop eating eggs but I'm having trouble stopping because I use them for so much and they have so many vitamins in them. I'm not trying to be vegan and if I had a hen in my backyard I would absolutely steal her eggs and eat them and not feel bad about it but the chicken factories are too fucked up, it makes me not want to eat grocery store eggs.

Anonymous 220946

>>220934
>>220934
I’m not disgusting. YOU are the hypocrite. People in developing countries are desperate and do not always respect human or animal rights but that doesn’t make it right.
YOU are just making excuses so let me spell it out for you.
If I have organ failure and need a organ and have a rare blood type, it’s still wrong for me to murder a person and steal there organs. I’ll just have to die of organ failure instead. Me dying is more moral.
If I am hungry and there is a deer , it’s wrong for me to snipe it and eat it’s body. I’ll just have to starve.
Animal rights are a logical extension of human rights. We both can feel pain. All beings which are sentient or were at one point sentient have a right to life. You can’t just steal and murder because malnourishment or boring food .
>crop deaths thoo

There’s a difference between killing someone in self defense / defense of property, killing someone on accident and executing someone by slitting there throat.
>>220937
It’s more ethical.

Anonymous 220947

>>220945
It’s best to give a hen you adopt a medication(like birth control for us people) to stop them from having periods/laying eggs.
Hens produces way too much eggs due to selective breeding and it leads to things like osteoporosis.
You can also feed there eggs back to them(yes they’ll eat it and it helps them replenish their nutrients they lost from laying them)

Anonymous 220948

>>220936
Rape/artificial insemination is standard practice in the dairy industry.
Cows have to be impregnated and give birth in order to make milk.

Anonymous 220952

Male_Lion_and_Cub_…

>>220946
>All beings which are sentient or were at one point sentient have a right to life.
Why?

>If I am hungry and there is a deer , it’s wrong for me to snipe it and eat it’s body. I’ll just have to starve.

>You can’t just steal and murder because malnourishment
Someone ought to tell the carnivores. Pic related, lions engaged in heinous acts of immorality.

Anonymous 220953

>>214942
Tried it for 10 years nearly died of vitamin b12 deficiency despite what the vegans say about it being easy, affordable and healthy. Now I eat like shit but I look alive and feel again. Veganism is just another cope for how cruel postmodern capitalism is in general. Veganism is like being a troon but for actual women lol. Why is it that women shrink themselves and make themselves suffer for altruistic causes when nobody cares if we live or die? No sarcasm I would love to hear a counter point. The lion cares not for the needs of the lamb but people are neither lions nor lambs we are obligate omnivores like apes and dogs. I do know of healthyish vegetarians rather than vegans but their skin is always so grey and they're so bloated in the face.

Anonymous 220965

>>220934
You do realize that it's a lack of access to overall calories and fresh produce that leads poor kids to malnutrition, right? Not the fact that they eat rice/beans. And calories are lost through body heat as it travels up the food chain. Meaning, we could feed poor kids a lot more calories (of grain) if we just gave all the grain that's grown to humans instead of using it as cattle feed.
Not to mention all the deforestation done in third-world countries done to create enough land for animal factory-farms. Wealthy people in first-world countries eating so much meat literally contributes to the existence of starving children in other countries. And when vegans say to eat rice and beans, they're talking to wealthy people (who are mostly the ones who eat meat). They're not shaming some kids living in extreme poverty who occasionally eat a few meat scraps they find in a dumpster, like you seem to be implying.

Anonymous 220970

>>220953
There are cultures around the world where people have consumed extremely low-levels of animal products for generations without developing many of the serious health problems that are common in modern meat eaters. Vitamin b-12 is produced by bacteria and is found naturally in some fermented foods. There are also vegan-supplements for it and plenty of vegan food that's fortified with it. With modern supplementation, there's no need to consume animal products at all.
>I look alive and feel again
>their skin is always so grey and they're so bloated in the face
Imagine thinking that your appearance and subjective feelings about it are more important/a better indication of your health than your lifespan and resistance to serious disease. Vegans are less likely to get heart disease (among other things). I'll take "grey skin" over a heart attack, any day.

Anonymous 220981

>>219114
also
>rape

Anonymous 220997

>>220972
The chickens that laid them were conscious.
Her life mattered and you paid for someone to torture and enslave her.
All because
>lions

Dolphins rape each other so I guess people raping each other is okay?
Pandas abandoning there newborn children and leaving them to die on there own is okay? Should we throw our newborn babies in dumpsters since it’s basically what pandas do?

Anonymous 221000

left is vegan.JPG

I've seen someone go vegan for like 2 years, but they looked like they aged 10 years. We're simply not meant to be vegan, at a biological level. Long term vegans all look like they're dying and it's because they are.

Anonymous 221001

>>220970
>there are cultures around the world
Name one.
>b-12 produced by bacteria and fermented
in extremely small amounts. Not enough to offset b12 deficiency
>vegan-supplements
Your body barely absorbs anything from supplements. If you have to rely on supplements to sustain a vegan, then the diet is clearly not healthy and lacking something fundamental
>feeling good is bad, I'd rather have grey skin than feel healthy
There's not much subjectivity going on there. If you feel healthy, that's a very good indicator for your health. That's like saying feeling sick is subjective. This is copium to the max.

Anonymous 221002

>>220997
Animals do what their biology leads them to do in order to survive and reproduce. As such, so do humans. To take that argument and say hurr you're just acting like animals why don't you twist your neck around your s/o like a giraffe! is taking argument with bad faith and misrepresenting it.

Anonymous 221003

too much.JPG

This is a thinly veiled body dysmorphia thread

Anonymous 221006

>>221000
>oh noes, not instagram pretty anymore!
Priorities.

Anonymous 221007

>>221006
being malnourished shouldn't be anyone's priority in life.

Anonymous 221009

>>221006
Its not even about being pretty. When you age so much faster than your peers because of dietary habits it means something you are doing is wrong and unhealthy, just like methheads age way faster than everyone. Their looks denote something wrong with their health, if you were properly nourished your brain could function properly and come to this conclusion

Anonymous 221023

>>220936
cherrypicking what? do you think cows produce milk 24/7 without our intervention? the pic I included was just the first thing that popped up when I searched dairy farm chute or something like that.

i think you saw pic and didn't read anything i said, and for that I offer you a "get off tiktok and fix your reading comprehension" award

Anonymous 221029

>>221003
photos of borderline anorexic women disturbs me

Anonymous 221063

Choices.jpg

>>221009
>>221007
One vegan looking ill =/= veganism makes you ill, although I'd gladly admit I believe veganism is probably not the ideal diet for humans. Who cares though?
That said, thank you for your concern. I note that there is much less of it regarding staying indoors all day, spending 8 hour a day sitting, eating ultra processed food (another not-ideal diet), breathing urban polluted air etc. (serious tho: why does veganism elicit such many health related concerns when other issues don't?)
You'll grow old and sick eventually. Have some gonads and pick your poison, accept to make choices and pay a price.
Again, priorities. What's the point of that appearance good health you speak about if it means ill morals?
Making choices according to principles usually comes with a price; optimizing (food, health etc.) for the sake of optimizing is insane, it's mindless greed applied to all domains of life (more money, more health, more beauty more more more… what for?).
I don't mind maybe getting less because of my choices, it's worth it.

Anonymous 221064

>>221063
Nta but
>why does veganism elicit such many health related concerns when other issues don't
Veganism only elicits such a response because people ask,"Why aren't you vegan?" If you don't want the answer, then you shouldn't ask people. All the other shit is bad for you, too. Doesn't change anything. Moderation and balance (with anything) is key. Never go to extremes.

Anonymous 221073

>>221065
If you want to act like an animal and say it’s moral then we should put you in a zoo and see how you like it. What costume should you wear as you dance for moids throwing treats at you
JK

unless…….

Anonymous 221179

I only have respect for vegans that get their foods from close/local sources. Just like I have no respect for people that do not get 'ethical' meat. Best would be for people to own their own farm animals and know how to slaughter them themselves so that they can use ALL possible parts and nothing goes to waste. Death exists for a reason and we need to make sure we use it as efficiently as possible

Anonymous 221194

>>214942
Do you realize how much animal biproduct you use everyday, that isn't even in food? Being vegan also sounds worse than being forced to eat out of a feeding tube.

Anonymous 221218

>>221179
Nazis who ran death camps used every part of the Jews they murdered…..
>>221194
Yes I know Bananas are sprayed with crab shells. Sugar dyed by bone char
Veganism isn’t necessarily perfect but it is the best diet

Anonymous 221219

>>221218
I'm pretty sure the Nazis didn't care for using(abusing) the Jewish peoples lives as efficiently as possible. They killed them more for a sport then anything, they just killed them for the sake of killing them.

Anonymous 221221

>>221218
It is living on a fucking feeding tube. You might as well be eating raw eggs every god damn day, anyway. Thats the quality of the food, you eat, its like ass. You live like a shell of a person. And most likely because youre desperate for male approval. Otherwise most likely doing it for points. Nothing you can say would ever convince me to live that way. It's just not worth it. Like willingly living at rock bottom. I have all this money I made at the job I hate and now I'm going to eat like a medieval serf???

Anonymous 221244

>>221219
There are people who kill animals for sport

They took there gold teeth out for example. gave them haircuts and enslaved some of them.
Murdered others

Anonymous 221245

>>221221
medieval surfs didn’t have avocados, plant milks, etc

Taste pleasure doesn’t justify murder.
Don’t ad hominem me
I don’t do this for anyone’s approval
Veganism isn’t about vegans
It’s about the animals as they are the victims

You are the perpetrator

Anonymous 221247

>>221245
Avocados by themselves are great, you're telling me I can't even put chicken boullion in my soup though???

Lol aaaaand I don't care. I never will. Especially not if it means I can't have chicken boullion or steak. What am I going to not eat sushi ? Your way of life is like eating out of a feeding tube.

Anonymous 221248

>>221245
I disagree. A lot of degenerates would be better off murdered lolllll. No I'm not comparing them to pork. Or am I ? Hmm

Anonymous 221257

>>221247
Because it’s evil

Anonymous 221261

>>221001
>Name one
Okinawans
>in extremely small amounts. Not enough to offset b12 deficiency
low-calorie foods can be consumed in large quantities.
>Your body barely absorbs anything from supplements
There's literally no evidence for this lmao. Why do you think supplements and fortified foods exist and doctors prescribe them? Because they work!
>There's not much subjectivity going on there. If you feel healthy, that's a very good indicator for your health
Drugs can make you feel good in the short term. Doesn't mean they don't cause health problems long-term. And according to you, meat makes you feel good short term. It's still proven to cause cancer and heart disease later in life. Clearly your current feelings aren't aligned with what's proven to be healthy long-term. I'm sure you'll feel like shit once the heart disease kicks in, though. Not denying that.
Your emotions and your feelings about your appearance are still subjective.

Anonymous 221263

>>221221
>It is living on a fucking feeding tube!!! Thats the quality of the food, you eat, its like ass!!! ;(
Damn, you're being overdramatic. Why do some meat eaters act so triggered when they hear the word "vegan"? Lmao. Most vegan food is just normal fucking food that you probably eat, too. Sugar, salt, spices, and almost everything that's used to add flavor to food is vegan. Cope.

Anonymous 221264

>>221263
No cheese no milk no salmon no steak you're eating like you're poverty stricken

Anonymous 221265

>>221261
Oh who cares

Anonymous 221267

what-does-havarti-…

>>221257
Weep to the tune of my cheese <3

Anonymous 221269

>>221265
The person I was responding who literally asked would care, I'm assuming. Of course, I'm being generous assuming they asked in good faith and wanted a serious response weren't just trolling. I admit that's a possibility, too.

Anonymous 221271

>>221264
Cool. I live frugally.
I hope you don't in the same breath accuse vegans of spending too much money lol.

Anonymous 221285

ribeye-steak-in-th…

>>221269
Death or T-bone

Anonymous 221288

>>221247
I’m just reading this thread for entertainment but your comment sticks out because chicken bouillon is such a weird must-have meat item to pick. All the flavor is from salt, it’s basically 99% made of salt, chicken is the least important part of it. I’m like impressed by what a strange choice it is.

Anonymous 221295

>>221288
That's why I picked it. It is such an inconspicuous ingredient

Bone broth is even better. I don't know what in the hell you would even replace it with. I don't even wanna know.

So many unremarkable ingredients that you have to reinvent your life without. You just want to give up before you start. Am I going to leave heavy cream out of my Nannas vodka sauce? No thank you keep your oat milk away from my pasta thanks

Anonymous 221319

>>221295
There is vegan substitutes for it.

Taste pleasure feels kind of good but a animal getting its throat slit feels really really bad.
Cows being raped feels really bad
Billions of male chicks being thrown into blenders or suffocated to death feels really bad

Anonymous 221335

Because i feel meat consumption to be right.

Meat is tasty, nutritional, and typically the centerpiece of the dish in my culture and in particular the region i am from. Not only that, but hunting has a strong tradition in both my country and my family, and a significant amount of the meat i consume is game i have myself hunted and butchered together with my family. Of course things like beef and chicken i purchase commercially, but veal, pork and game poultry i procure via the aforementioned method. At the end of every season, typically at the end of February, my family and friends hold a feast to celebrate a successful season.

And there is nothing i would trade that away for.

Anonymous 221339

>>221335
I wonder what your culture is.
>>221285
Ate this exact meal today. Nothing beats the taste of meat, no beans, no tofu, or other plant based nonsense. Delicious.

Anonymous 221344

melon.jpg

>>214942
If I ever have a son, I would put him on a vegan diet as an experiment.

Anonymous 221374

>>221335
Hunting is murder

Anonymous 221386

>>221344
There is nothing inherently wrong or inherently horribly difficult with veganism
The problem arises when greens that are used as a replacement for the nutrients that meats give you, also happen to destroy soil or harm the environment because of the way they are farmed

https://youmatter.world/en/10-worst-popular-foods/

Anonymous 221392

>>220930
It’s called artificial insemination(when they impregnate cows to make milk) but they unofficially call the device they use to restrain cows while they artificially inseminate(put semen from a bulk they jerked off up a cows body into her cervix) a “rape rack”

Go vegan .

Anonymous 221419

>>221374
Factory farming is WAY worse than hunting IMO. Hunting is something a lot of animals do. It's just the circle of life.

Anonymous 221421

>>221374
So hunting is murder, because according to you we are equal to animals, yet when someone points out that a vast amount of animals hunt other animals, you accuse us of steeping down to the level of an animal?

Vegans seem to have a higher than usual rate of learning disability it seems.

Anonymous 221433

>>214942
You know what my favorite dish on earth is ? This old English rabbit pie

https://www.deliaonline.com/recipes/international/european/british/old-english-rabbit-pie


Ugh nothing compares to that recipe. It is just SO obscenely good. If you can get game rabbit it's even better.

Anonymous 221464

>>221421
There are severely mentally disabled humans or baby humans who are also unable to reason just like animals. It’s wrong to kill them too.

Anonymous 221465

>>221464
You are the one comparing the disabled to animals.

Anonymous 221466

>>221464
That is nowhere near the universally agreed moral principle you think it is. For instance, animal rights advocate and ethicist Peter Singer wrote:
>Human babies are not born self-aware, or capable of grasping that they exist over time. They are not persons; therefore, the life of a newborn is of less value than the life of a pig, a dog, or a chimpanzee.
And this is reflected in law, not just in precivilization societies or in ancient infanticide-heavy societies like Rome or Sparta. In the Anglosphere, infanticide legislation usually protects mothers from facing homicide charges until the baby is more than 1 year old.

Anonymous 221502

>>221465
I’m comparing not equating

Both can feel pain and pleasure and both are unable to reason
>>221466
I’m not a utilitarian I’m a threshold deontologist

Peter is nuts

Anonymous 221636

>>214942
That op pic makes me feel really sad

Anonymous 221641

>>221636
the baby monke is okay, he only tripped and fell. i looked it up.

Anonymous 221664

I can't ever go vegan. Most of the food I grew up with and love have meat in it. Also I don't want to go vegan anyways

Anonymous 221694

>>221664
The animals having their throats slit want you to go vegan

Anonymous 221771

What about humans means they deserve rights but not pigs?

If it’s arbitrary I could say people with the name Julia deserve rights but not people with the name Sophia.
What’s the trait all humans share that all animals lack?

The similarity I see is sentience(ability to feel pain )

What religion that isn’t garbage only gives rights to humans?

Anonymous 221795

You guys are getting into some insane tangential arguments in here. You eat the meat, you live off the meat, the meat was an alive animal, the animal felt pain and suffered while it was alive. Livestock farming can’t be eradicated in most of our lifetimes without massive human death by starvation due to meat being a massive part of the global food supply. Can we agree on a couple of things and talk about steps to make it better without being totally retarded about it in here?

Anonymous 221796

>>221694
Why do you claim to speak for animals who cannot even speak for themselves and are just as likely to eat you as you are to eat them? What mercy needs to be shown to a pig who is willing to eat quite literally anything presented to it, be it from unconscious humans to small animals? Why are you so willing to put non-humans above humans?

Anonymous 221827

>>221795
No because 97-99 % of all animals products are factory farmed (torture) and grain fed

Anonymous 221847

2C9D588F-4BDA-4E25…

I think this works really well with my secular morals I have (wrong to kill or harm people or sentient animals except for law enforcement, euthanasia(maybe), accidents, self defense, defense of property, defending your country in war, treating a disease(putting a IV in a unconscious person who just got in a car crash) )

Feels good to be able to ground my morals behind religion.

Anonymous 221848

16BF07BB-A52D-4F10…

>>221847
nonviolence(including to animals ) vows of Jainism

Anonymous 221852

Sudharma Swami: What is the punishment in the hells? Knowing it, O sage, tell it me who do not know it! How do sinners go to hell?
Mahavira: I shall describe the truly insupportable pains where there is distress and (the punishment of) evil deeds. Those cruel sinners who, from a desire of (worldly) life, commit bad deeds, will sink into the dreadful hell which is full of dense darkness and great suffering. He who always kills movable and immovable beings for the sake of his own comfort, who injures them, who takes what is not freely given, who does not learn what is to be practised (viz. control). The impudent sinner, who injures many beings without relenting will go to hell; at the end of his life he will sink to the (place of) darkness; head downwards he comes to the place of torture. The prisoners in hell lose their senses from fright, and do not know in what direction to run. Going to a place like a burning heap of coals on fire, and being burnt they cry horribly; they remain there long, shrieking aloud.
According to Jain scripture, Tattvarthasutra, following are the causes for birth in hell:[4]

Killing or causing pain with intense passion.
Excessive attachment to things and worldly pleasure with constantly indulging in cruel and violent acts.
Vowless and unrestrained life.

Anonymous 221855

>>214942
How the hell do you keep a dog or cat and justify feeding them pet food? It means you can never own a cat or dog. That juat sucks ass.

And if you're vegan and you try to keep cats or dogs you're Satan's own spawn.

Anonymous 221861

>>221827
That's more reason to face reality. You can't end all factory farming in a day without killing millions of people through starvation. You have have governments make a long term plan to phase it out and switch feed crops to food crops over time and downsize factory farming while replacing it with nutritious alternatives. I'm just throwing a number out there right now but it would probably take like 50 years.

Anonymous 221862

>>221855
>if you're vegan and you try to keep cats or dogs you're Satan's own spawn.
You mean if you get a cat/dog and feed them a vegan diet? Agreed. It's just animal cruelty.

Anonymous 221864

>>221862
And what would you call the treatment of the animals they are eating?

Anonymous 221865

>>221861
Billions of animals are tortured and murdered in the current world now…

Anonymous 221866

>>221855
No vegan goes out and buys a dog from a breeder

They adopt one and do the best they can to care for the animal without hurting anyone else

Anonymous 221867

>>216033
This
I understand why vegans feel the way they do but eating other animals is nature. Plus most domesticated animals couldn't live without humans at this point, like if a dairy cow isn't milked or a sheep doesn't get its wool cut it creates a lot of problems. Plus chickens are retarded and not made for a temperate climate. Sadly if we turned them all loose they'd be endangered species very quickly. It's either eat the cow or keep it as a pet

Anonymous 221872

1631936959086.jpg

>>221867
I'm just tired of vegans using moid logic when they compare women to cows, goats, and geese, etc. They sound extremely fucking retarded when they try to equate the importance, intelligence, and beauty of human women to animals.

Anonymous 221873

>>221866
Nobody mentioned buying a dog from a breeder?

Anonymous 221874

>>221864
Well what the fuck else are the supposed to eat?? Lentils and chickpeas??????

Its nature's way. The circle of life. Now I think humans should raise food more humanely, but everything has to eat.. lIzard, frogs, owls wolves. You're not really above them because you won't eat a damn farm egg.



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