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413FC054-79D6-4EC4…

Why aren’t you vegan? Anonymous 214942

Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?

Anonymous 214945

borger tasty

Anonymous 214946

Vegans are completely and unequivocally right about everything, but I am still just vegetarian because I am a bad person who can't put doing the objectively right thing over the personal pleasure of cheese.

Anonymous 214948

>>214942
an animal dying at the hands of a human is a far better death than dying in the wild. so if you care about minimizing animal suffering, you should eat them, simple as.

Anonymous 214951

Human bio-forms don't get rights just by being alive. Vegetative coma patients and fetuses only continue their metabolic cycles by the sufferance of their proprietors. A human's right to life is contingent upon its active participation in society, and/or the will of an active social participant who will suffer their life. Similarly, there is no right to life for animals.

The distinction between human and animal life in the state of total removal from or rejection by the social contract, is that most – but by no means all – societies reject the use and profit from the harvesting of human biomass for productive purposes, including production of both food and other goods. However, this exclusion is by no means absolute, nor even coherent. In the case of fetuses, fetal kidney tissues are used to culture and develop almost all serious vaccines, organs are traded like commodities by medical organizations. Human-based meat is taboo, but so are the meats of many other prohibited animals including endangered bushmeat. The prohibition in modern America is largely against harvesting human biomass for profit on the part of those who un-alived said biomass. This is entirely unfair and arbitrary, there is no reason a woman who underwent abortion should be excluded from the profit a corporation is likely to get from harvesting what is in fact her biological property and was extirpated on the basis of her biological proprietorial rights.

Anonymous 214952

chicken and cow are too delicious

Anonymous 214955

>>214948
An animal intentionally brought into existence by a farm was created from horrible mechanical rape in order to live a life in squalid horror in which it is likely torturously raped if female or simply tortured if male, suffers deformities and disease, and is only granted an admittedly merciful death after years of force feeding–frequently devouring some of the remains of its own parents–in darkness and filth.

Anonymous 214956

I can't say I'm vegan because sometimes I go fishing. To me it's only fair to eat meat if you are willing to take a life yourself. Other than that I keep a vegan diet.

Anonymous 214957

>>214945
>>214952
Someone could easily say the same thing about killing and eating people feeling too good. This isn’t a joking matter and these responses worry me….
>>214948
There are people in developing countries who you could essentially say the same thing about. It still doesn’t justify killing or enslaving them.
>>214951
This is some very sick logic. You could easily justify torture/experimentation on humans so long as they were severely mentally disabled to the point that they didn’t respect our social contract.
>>214956
Still not a justification…

Anonymous 214958

>>214955
that isn't the only option. what about hunting, fishing, even farming can be a good life for an animal if you do it right.

Anonymous 214960

>>214942
Morals, rights, etc. are all intangible drivel. We are omnivores at the top of the food chain and nothing more.

Anonymous 214961

>>214960
You could justify racism or sexism with this logic

Anonymous 214962

>>214960
Vegans are right according to the only semi-objective moral framework (utilitarianism). The suffering of animals is maybe not similar in quality to that of humans, but still tangible. If there is such a thing as an objective moral obligation, it is to reduce suffering.

Anonymous 214963

>>214957
>There are people in developing countries who you could essentially say the same thing about.
meh

Anonymous 214964

>>214962
Im not a utilitarian. I don’t believe there’s a moral obligation to kill all carnivores for example

I believe in rights. I believe it’s okay to defend yourself against a animal attacking you though

Anonymous 214965

>>214963
So you admit you are a hypocrite? In the op that was what I was getting at

Anonymous 214966

>>214957
It's just that I think humans are animals too, worse in a lot of ways actually. If an animal were to kill me and eat me I wouldn't mind it. My problem with meat consumption is the industrialization of the process, which is literally a factory of suffering and death like the other anon said. Also people's aversion to death while literally eating corpses.

Anonymous 214967

>>214966
Well most humans are capable of reason but still choose evil. Animals don’t know any better

Anonymous 214968

>>214965
veganism is a luxury diet that most humans cannot afford. we do not eat people and can't really or we get sick. there is no way around suffering, you cannot stop animal suffering, we do not eat animas to make them suffer, we do it to survive.

Anonymous 214969

>>214968
You’re an idiot. Most people can’t afford to eat a diet full of animal products.

Anonymous 214970

>>214969
wrong. and since you called me an idiot i'm done here. good luck with your poor health

Anonymous 214971

>>214957
>You could easily justify torture/experimentation on humans so long as they were severely mentally disabled to the point that they didn’t respect our social contract.
That has historically been one of the social purposes of imprisonment. When the social contract is severely breached it is more often done by men with mental disabilities than otherwise; Joe Arridy was only exceptional in his complete inability to comprehend his position, it was a matter of degree rather than quality that made "the happiest man on death row" noteworthy. Social, psychological, and biological experiments are still conducted on prisoners, with the only significant change in modern states as opposed to the states of the mid-20th century being that prisoner experimentation requires no more than "minimal risk of harm." The MKUltra experiments of the 1960s conducted on prisoners would, incidentally, still pass that legal requirement.

In terms of social experimentation it is arguable that even that minimal standard is rarely actually met. The American justice system in particular is world-renowned for not just containing but in fact encouraging and weaponizing rape as a terror weapon against its own male population to discourage criminality, not amongst the prisoners, but amongst non-imprisoned adult men. Prosecutors are also known to specifically threaten men with rape to coax a confession out of them, and in male correctional facilities the highest rate of rape in fact occurs in jails rather than prisons and on an inmate's first week rather than later because those facilities are socially structured to promote the rape of new inmates in order to psychologically break them before transfer to actual prisons after full conviction or confession.

Biological experiments on patients in persistent vegetative states are not conducted very often but donating a living but non-personed body to science is not particularly more problematic than donating a dead body to science, and the law will eventually come around to treating these intact resources no differently than it currently treats fetal cell lines and Henrietta Lacks.

Anonymous 214972

>>214968
It's not a luxury diet. Rice and beans have all the essential amino acids for example. Supermarket products targeted for vegans are a scam.

Anonymous 214973

>>214970
>takes 12 pounds of grain to produce one >pound of beef
>grass fed animal products are a leading >cause of deforestation

Plants are a privilege!

Anonymous 214974

>>214971
>Most moral meat eater

Anonymous 214975

>>214961
Justification caries the implication of acting against some greater principle like morality. I would say the idea of it has no merit. It is essentially trying to coddle oneself with a belief of relative goodness.

>>214962
The idea that something like moral obligation exist is questionable at best. Such a thing could never be objective.

Anonymous 214976

>>214975
It’s hypocrisy to give rights to all humans but not all animals.

I believe all sentient beings should not be murdered or tortured.
Obviously we can talk about exceptions like self defense

Anonymous 214977

>>214974
Yes, my stance on the eating of meat is consistent with my stance on abortion and on the harshness with which male criminality should be treated. Incidentally there is a significant legal question about whether or not state-mandated prison sexual assault actually constitutes rape. This argument is based on the laws governing prison medical experimentation. Legally, it is not possible for a prisoner to consent to medical experimentation, but consent is also not required to perform said experimentation. The boundaries of bodily sovereignty end at conviction, which is also one of the legal distinctions between the death penalty and homicide. Since a prisoner's personal consent for the use of their body is not legally required, the rape of a prisoner, whether by guard or other prisoner, is really more a kind of property crime than a personal crime.
>>214976
>It’s hypocrisy to give rights to all humans but not all animals.
Yes, which is why no society in the history of humanity has ever given rights to all humans, including a right to life itself.

Anonymous 214978

>>214945
fpbp love me some borger
>>214957
the government doesn't want you to know people are just as tasty

Anonymous 214979

>>214977
I didn’t think me stating animal rights should exist and be respected would turn into this and certainly not this quickly. I can’t make this stuff up….

As if people don’t get raped before conviction…

Anonymous 214980

>>214978
People aren't tasty in the same way though. Cannibals have affirmed over and over that baby meat and even child meat tastes absolutely horrid, unlike say veal. To get a good cut of human you have to eat adult, or at least adolescent. The required time investment more than anything else makes human meat a complete non-starter.

Anonymous 214981

>>214976
Yes, that's why I said humans are worse. But you are fighting a lost crusade anon. To end all suffering no life can exist. The best we can do is to not support modern slaughterhouses. That's why I believe hunting and fishing are good options for ethical meat consumption.

Anonymous 214982

>>214979
People definitionally only get raped before conviction. Prison "rape" is arguably a condition of punishment, which would be prohibited under the US constitution's prohibition on "cruel or unusual" punishments. This would then proceed into arguments over whether a given circumstance was either cruel or unusual. The rape of a pedophile for instance might be seen as both appropriate and regular.

Anonymous 214983

>>214981
It’s not about ending all suffering. It’s about ending rights violations

Anonymous 214984

>>214976
>hypocrisy
I'm not sure why you replied to me as you did. Rights exist as only as ideas in social contracts and legal arrangements. They have no actual presence or form. They are not real. Rights simply are a fake possession people feel comfortable with.

There is no social contact or legal arrangement formed between humans and other animals. They are not part of our greter societies, and, accordingly, the have no participation in, or claim to, the idea of rights.

Anonymous 214986

>>214982
People who are innocent get raped. People get raped for possessing a plant.

Im not going to debate the ethics of rape and selling human body parts so I can justify having a cheeseburger because I’m not a psychopath.

Anonymous 214987

>>214984
Rights used to not apply to certain humans belonging to certain groups.

Obviously there exists children or the severely mentally disabled who have no concept of rights but I still believe they deserve rights and therefore it’s wrong to murder or torture them.

Anonymous 214988

>>214986
This is a thread dedicated to an industry built on the profits reaped from systematized, automatized suffering. Society contains multiple such industries, including the prison industry. If you are not willing to debate the ethics of profiting from systematized human suffering under the condition that said humans had their rights repealed, then you're not prepared to debate animal suffering under the terms of animal rights either.

Anonymous 214990

>>214988
Of course I’m against cash bail, people in jail for possessing a plant, rape in prisons, private prisons, mass incarceration, etc.

But a guilty person like a murderer being kept away from others to not harm anyone isn’t the same thing as an animal being breed into existence to be tortured and killed

Anonymous 214991

>>214987
Rights only exist in any practical way as legal protections in a social contract. Despite any personal convictions you have about what is wrong, correct,unfair, or fair, rights are not relevant to non-participants of a social system.

Anonymous 214992

>>214991
I’m obviously not referring to them in a legal sense but a moral one.

There are people who do not respect our rights such as the six year old who shot his teacher. Or a wolf who bites someone.

It’s still wrong to torture either ;)

Anonymous 214993

>>214942
Humans are supposed to eat meat. Animals eat each other to survive. Veganism is terrible for your health in the long run. The vegan agenda is aimed at weakening the population.

Anonymous 214995

>>214993
Animals kill each other so let’s do it too?

You are wrong about nutrition btw.

Anonymous 214996

>>214990
>Of course
Not the right starting place. The issue is not whether you have a conclusion for the ideal treatment of murderers that seems congruent with the ideal treatment of korean jindos bred for meat stands. The issue is whether or not the suspension or annulment of rights even to the point of such things is actually unprincipled or unconscionable–whether rights are extended by and through a society and therefore do not exist outside of societies, or whether they are inherent to a being's life itself and are thus not revocable by a society. The first is the meat eater argument. The second is the anti-abortion argument.

Anonymous 214997

>>214996
A right to life is inherent to a sentient being itself outside of a society. You do NOT lose your right to life when you take a nap though

I believe in the right to self defense and bodily autonomy…. Also I don’t see how starving a fetus out even if it’s sentient is murder.
I guess I’m pro choice?

Anonymous 214998

>>214995
I always laugh when vegans talk about nutrition. Yes, if you're a city office worker who sits on your butt all day, you can supplement your diet with vitamins and veggies. But that isn't gonna cut it for the people who are going to have to perform manual labor all day in the hot fucking sun to pick the fruit or other intense jobs. They'll fucking faint.

Anonymous 214999

>>214998
As if there are no vegan athletes? The IDF has plenty of vegan soldiers too.
Most vegan’s literally only take b12 and vit D. Meat eaters could benefit from vit D too.
Maybe also a EPA/DHA algae supplement

Anonymous 215000

>>214995
No, just saying it's a part of life. So many cases of long-term vegans with health problems. Premature aging, muscle, hair and period loss, higher pitched voice in men and facial hair in women, etc.

Anonymous 215001

>>214999
Lol alright yeah. go do a real job and try it. See what happens to you.

Anonymous 215002

>>215000
Trust my anecdotal evidence instead of the seventh day Adventists who are the healthiest population on earth

Anonymous 215004

>>214996
Thank you articulate nona for eloquently expressing the nature of the "meat eater argument" I was espousing.

Anonymous 215005

>>214997
>A right to life is inherent to a sentient being itself outside of a society. You do NOT lose your right to life when you take a nap though.
"Sentient" is a very liquid term. In ye olden tymes, it referred primarily to a creature that had "senses." This was a distinction between insensate life, such as single celled life and plants, inanimate objects, and so forth. I believe you are making the argument in the vein of this definition, that animals are sensory and demonstrate sensory responses, particularly nociception.

Nociception has a very long history of ideologically convenient politicization. It is still considered present in some life and absent in other life forms. For the longest time it was argued that even apes and carnivora did not experience true nociception. It is only quite recently that arguments about nociception amongst insects or crustaceans gained any scientific evidence in either direction. I have heard vegans who argue that if insects do not experience nociception then they would accept factory farming of locusts and other mass production compatible insects for industrial protein production.

Infant nociception to this day is "poorly understood."
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn1701
Infanticide is legally distinct from homicide in Canada. The argument for essentially-legalizing infanticide in Canada was not principally based on nociception, but nociception amongst human infants has been the subject of a lot of the bioethical debate around the decriminalization or reduction-in-criminalization of human infanticide (including statements by vegans like Peter Singer in the wake of the controversy stirred up by Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva). If it could be demonstrated that nociception in animals was as distinct from adult human nociception as nociception is in fetuses, or even in infants, would that constitute sufficient evidence that such a nociceptor-deficient animal was appropriate for factory farming?

Anonymous 215006

>>214996
It’s so much work to justify a diet that’s worse for the environment and human health just so you can enjoy the taste of animal products…

Anonymous 215007

>>215005
I don’t care about Nociception. I care about ability to feel pain and pleasure.

I have my disagreements with Peter singer. I’m not donating all my money to third world countries but we should stop fucking with them with our horrible foreign policies.
I don’t support torturing infants or animals.
I can’t believe you would justify eating animals by equating it to infanticide and saying both are fine…

Anonymous 215008

>>215007
>I don’t care about Nociception. I care about ability to feel pain and pleasure.
…that is specifically what nociception means.

Anonymous 215010

>>215008
I call it sentience. There is plenty of research on animal sentience and they can absolutely feel pain. Yes even fish

Anonymous 215011

>>215006
>>215010

>>215007
Brainlets.

>>215006
She isn't offering justification or condemnation on the issue. She is only pointing out the potential fallacy of animal rights as a concept.

>>215007
>>215010
Maybe look up words you don't know the meaning of.

Anonymous 215013

>>215011
That term is rarely used.
Again there’s research on animal sentience.
Lookup “universal declaration on animal sentience “

Anonymous 215014

>>215013
The Universal Declaration on Animal Welfare (UDAW) is a proposed inter-governmental agreement to recognise that animals are sentient, to prevent cruelty and reduce suffering, and to promote standards on the welfare of animals such as farm animals, companion animals, animals in scientific research

I don’t believe in welfare but there

Anonymous 215016

>>215010
I wanted us to use the specific and untainted term nociception for a reason, even though I did pick up on your usage of sentience. The popular media conception of sentience has been tainted to the point of uselessness with science fictional works that freely confuse sentience with human-equivalent intelligence, or with free will, or with decision-making processes. Online discussions about the nature or existence of "sentience" are more commonly found online in debates on AI and whether or not androids should be given the right to vote than on whether or not cat meat is ethical. This leads to a confusion in terms and accusations that you as a vegan would be asking us to assume the unknowable and imponderable, which would ultimately be unfair to you, since you were talking about something both specific and demonstrable.

The question of infanticide as pertaining to the rights of non-person life is far more complex than you're giving it credit for, but was also a way of trying to formalize an argument around rights that treats you fairly. It should allow you to articulate a position that bypasses knee-jerk antagonism based on the offended sentimentality of carnivores.

Anonymous 215019

>Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?
Animals have been eating each other since the first primitive cells began to engulf each other in the ocean billions of years ago. There is no such thing as inherent rights for animals
I'm fine with wanting to improve the state of farmed food. Having animals cooped up together in their own filth and using exorbitant amounts of antibiotics to prevent death is clearly idiotic because eventually the antibiotics will become useless as bacteria and fungi evolve immunity (this is already happening).
I heavily support buying locally raised and butchered meats from small farms, but I recognize that it is incredibly expensive for most people and not realistic for them.

Anonymous 215020

>>215019
Animal products are not affordable. They’re subsidized but expensive

Anonymous 215022

>>215020
Do you have a breakdown on the difference in subsidation of animal products versus plant products? Looking into the subsidies that cereals farmers receive in the United States has led me to some weird conspiracy theorist rabbitholes in the past.

Anonymous 215024

>>215002
Yea because the Adventists promote and fund veganism and its research for their religious agenda of chastity, not even animal rights.

Anonymous 215026

>>215024
This seems like a nonsequitur. Nona's arguing for veganism as a health positive and Adventism as a healthy vegan population, instead of arguing for Adventism as a religion and veganism as a means of proseltyzation. Are you counterarguing that Adventists are a healthy population because they maintain higher chastity rates for longer rather than because they are vegan?

Anonymous 215029

I dont have the time or money to buy hundreds of supplements for foods I've cut out or to plan my meals really carefully so I get everything my body needs.

Anonymous 215031

>>214942
i dont eat monkey and meat is nourishing faster than having to eat huge amonts of veggies.

Omni-vore is god tier. Fight me vegans.

Anonymous 215035

The Billions.jpeg

For one thing, we are omnivores that need meat. Those that live in tropical regions can augment their diet with more varieties of fruit if they want, but if you live in the colder regions, you should be eating some meats. Not in excess of a healthy diet of course.
For another, my perspective is that we're symbiotic organisms over the surface of the Earth, the same way all the little but very numerous microbes in our own body are. I'm all for reforming meat processing and cutting back, and I don't mind vegetarians, (excuse me? give up dairy and go vegan?? Fuck that), they're okay with me as long as they're reciprocal. I am not going to eat "zee bugs"
Final point. Human mass replaces all other biomass. I'm more concerned with balancing biodiversity and slowing/stopping the mass extinctions going on right now.

Anonymous 215041

>>214980
serial killer/cannibal albert fish said children tasted great and that he'd do it again and again

Anonymous 215043

>>214999
Most of the military have non-combat roles you know

Anonymous 215044

>>215026
I'm not counterarguing that Adventists are a healthy population, it's just that she implies that my anecdotal evidence is much less trustworthy than the Adventists, which have paid scientists and funded most of the research in favor of veganism, especially knowing their whole motive behind it is to curb lust and masturbation which is just absurd, they don't actually care about animal rights. Don't know where she got the info that the Adventists are the healthiest population in the world, which may or may not be true, I don't know

Anonymous 215045

Because I haven’t figured out how to stop eating cheese and butter. I’m getting there though.
Coconut oil is pretty close to butter and I like the coconut flavor even in biscuits etc. I haven’t bought butter in a while but I don’t know I might do it again.
Cheese is tough… I like nachos and Mac n cheese so much I eat the both once a week and I need calories, I have an active job. Someone please tell me how to replace it in my diet.
No plan to stop eating eggs. I could probably be convinced if I went to an egg farm but I’ve had chickens and they’re nasty creatures, eggs are their only redeeming quality.

Anonymous 215061

>>215041
Is it me or does that guy sound like a real jerk?

Anonymous 215073

20230120_104316.jp…

>>215045
While I disagree on your opinion of chickens, there are several recipes out there for vegan "cheese". Most of it relies on tapioca starch, nuts and nutritional yeast.

Anonymous 215088

>Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?
No
>Why aren’t you vegan?
I'm not a retard

Anonymous 215096

>Why aren’t you vegan?
my lifestyle requires animal protein, and i like how those products taste too

>Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?

i think humans have the moral obligation to be way kinder to nature than they are, both to give back to the world for the luck we have as an advanced species and also because this mass disruption of the ecosystem will, or more like is, biting us in the ass. but thats what a lot of us including me deserve i guess. i'll deal with my bad nature-related karma in another life most likely, but when i read online discussions about ecology adjacent topics, i'm pretty sure mine won't be the worst karma around

Anonymous 215097

>>214974
>wahh wahh ur a meat eater waah ur immoral
don't care didn't ask having an extra steak today in your honor

>>214976
>It’s hypocrisy to give rights to all humans but not all animals.
And? Placing the needs and concerns of your own family/friends/group before those of others is always "hypocrisy". Hypocrisy isn't some cardinal sin "gotcha" that someone who values their own species over others is gonna be ashamed of and change their ways lol
>oh no not a hypocrite anything but that, please, i'll let my children grow up malnourished and brain damaged from eating a shit bioavailability vegan diet before i'll be a hypocrite

Anonymous 215098

>Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?
Of course. Animals should have way more rights than they have.
>Why aren't you vegan?
Because I am as much animal as they are. Just as they would kill me, I will kill and eat them. In my humanity, I will make their death quick and painless, but I will still kill them.

Anonymous 215154

Screenshot 2023-01…

>>214993
>Humans are supposed to eat meat.
Humans are supposed to face screens in cubicles 8 hours a day too?
It's not about what we are allegedly supposed to do (supposed by whom?), it's just about what we do and don't. There is no need to compare yourself to a phantasmagorical version of reality.
In this reality, not eating animals is easy, costs me close to nothing in terms of effort, time, money, health… Why would I eat meat then?
Everyone is free to do it or not, but hiding your choice behind some weak naturalistic justification is just ridiculous.
>we're not supposed to!
Just take responsibility for your actions.

Anonymous 215160

>>215154
We're supposed to because our bodies are literally made for meat consumption. Our bodies aren't made for looking at a screen, mostly because screens are a human invention and not naturally occurring. You're right that our ancestors didn't look at screens in cubicles- well done. But that was an awful comparison. If you want to not eat animals or animal products then go ahead, but don't argue that it's unnatural for other people to still be eating meat.

Anonymous 215162

Gates-Map.jpg

>>214942
Humans evolve because of meat, veganism is unnatural. https://youtu.be/9Qo9peKk_gQ
>also
Daily reminder that veganism is bullshit promoted by oligarchs.

Anonymous 215197

>>215045
The problem with replacing butter with coconut oil is that coconuts do not grow in colder climates, so coconuts would need to be imported which creates far more pollution that just eating locally produced butter. It's not going to matter that a animal was not used in it's production if animals are dying or being born deformed because the earth is toxic waste dump of petrochemicals.

Anonymous 215206

>>215160
I'm telling you the natural/unnatural isn't a valid argument. We haven't lived naturally in thousands of years. Humanity is intrinsically unnatural. The appeal to nature is a fallacy in this debate.

Anonymous 215208

monki.jpeg

>>214942
every time i see a vegan woman she looks like a 49 year old teenager. It's really discouraging.

Anonymous 215221

>>215160
I'm not a vegan, but I just want to say, eating meat as often and in as high of an amount as we do nowadays (practically every single day) was not the norm for most of human history. If each person lowered the amount to, say, 3 times a week, the demand would fall, and meat production would follow suit to avoid unnecessary losses.

But of course, this expectation is highly unrealistic unless enforced by law. The companies have already shaped our needs through just a couple of generations, and the only way back is by sheer force or an actual meat shortage caused by some calamity or the other.

Anonymous 215233

I'm not vegan because the chickens I get my eggs from live better lives than I do

Anonymous 215262

>>214942
im too poor to afford being a vegan

Anonymous 215264

>>215221
>I'm not a vegan, but I just want to say, eating meat as often and in as high of an amount as we do nowadays (practically every single day) was not the norm for most of human history.
That's true but history is a post-agriculture development. It's completely unknown how common it was in human pre-history. One of humanity's ancestor/sister species, the Neanderthals, are speculated to have gone extinct because the climate changed enough that their almost all meat diet could no longer be met. It has also been speculated that hominid brain development is owed mostly to early hominids having learned to crack bones to eat marrow, which most predators our size can't do. This development of a meat and fat diet was what support rapid population growth, prolonged gestation, larger communities and all the other prerequisites for an evolutionary investment in larger and more social brains in those upright apes, without diminishing the evolutionary push towards intelligence with readily available calories from plant matter. The evolution of this meat centered diet would have been so rapid that teeth and natural weaponry could not keep up with the evolutionary push and so further stone tools were developed in a positive feedback loop.

Anonymous 215294

I'm vegetarian because my mum wouldn't let me go vegan, have been so for the past five years, I try to buy dairy free stuff and free range eggs. The conclusion I've reached over the years is that the animal rights movement should've focused less on veganism and ethics and more on the main problem of animal abuse in factory farms more (in contrast to vague slogans of 'end animal suffering' or even that animals have 'rights', a distinctly human concept). If they'd acknowledged that veganism isn't the only solution, it would have garnered more widespread support and influence. I believe we could have passed many more reforms on factory farming with the support of the masses. But instead now it's mostly conflict and us vs them mentality, I hate it.

Anonymous 215298

>>215294
Conflict-averse reformism is the reason feminism is now synonymous with perverse eunuchs wearing dresses. Animal rights by way of veganism is at least still primarily interested in animal rights.

Anonymous 215299

>>214942
>dont feel like researching how to replace the nutritional value that i'll miss out on from animal products
>schizo about vegan foods containing pesticides/endocrine disruptors
>can't afford a fully vegan diet

>>215097
baste

im unclear about the morality but i place self-preservation above all else

Anonymous 215307

>>215298
I don't agree, I think the belief that you have to be vegan to care about animal rights is what resulted in the widespread apathy + antipathy on this issue of systemic animal abuse, because most people are simply not willing to change their lifestyles that drastically. If we had the masses then legislators and corporations would actually have to start paying attention.
Also, in certain vegan communities there existed a lot of the same cult-like traits that you'll find in tranny communities, endless anger and mockery at 'meat-eaters' and staunch assurance of their own self righteousness. Especially now with meat eating on the rise globally, as countries develop and the population increases, it's just not realistic to continue demanding that everyone go vegan.

Anonymous 215405

>>215097
>And? Placing the needs and concerns of your own family/friends/group before those of others is always "hypocrisy"
tbh I don't view animals as having the same rights/needs as people. I see vegans use a lot of "gotchas," One of them was slavery, basically saying,"Well nobody thought Black people should have the same rights as people. Everyone was okay with that. That's the same thing with animals." It totally misses the point that the reason people considered slavery wrong is that they treated people like animals (treating them as subhuman essentially). Basically removing them of their personhood and demoting them to animal status. It's incomparable, and these "gotchas" annoy me because they come from libed-out white vegans who are typically concerned with racism. I kek at the irony of comparing the plight of black slaves to animals.

Anonymous 215442

Its tricky because vegan food also poses it's own ethical problems. A lot of fruits are imported from countries that have slaves or criminals working in the industry. For example, the avocado trade is apparently fucked with the cartel for some reason

Anonymous 215445

>>215442
Not explicitly a vegan issue, love this argument, like meat eaters can’t scran an avocado

Anonymous 215451

I was vegetarian for 1.5 years and during that time my physical and mental health declined quite a lot. I started to have a severe anemia to the point when it was impossible to stand up without an instant blackout and vertigo. Never had any skin problems before and suddenly I had cystic acne all over the face. I constantly had to squeeze out the pus because each pimple was a constant source of pain. I cut my hair short because it started to fall out a lot and was just all over the place. The thought that I may not be getting enough nutrients lived in my head rent free, all day just thinking about food and how much it can give to my body. And at the same time I thought that everything was fine, that my diet was wonderful, healthy, and doing my body more good than harm. Like, there wasn't even a thought. Until I came across a few posts from radfems about how vegan and vegetarian diets are basically a form of eating disorder in women, which we adopt because of our gender socialization that shapes us to be more empathetic and put other people's suffering before our own.

In my experience, such discussions are quite difficult to find, so I'll list some points from what I read:
>For 99% of all vegetarians, especially vegans, the reason for giving up meat is not a dislike of meat at all, but a pathological feminine socialization that forces them to value the interests of chicken above their own. That is to say, the pressure of a pathologically raised sense of guilt by the misogynistic bastards of the stubborn "greens" who litter the Internet with pictures of skinned carcasses.
>Feminism and vegetarianism are incompatible, because vegetarianism is a kind of adaptive choice (a choice influenced by circumstances, upbringing, and cultural attitudes and passed off as one's own). And also because men use vegetarianism and animal welfare as new levers to influence women, to indoctrinate us into feeling guilty about anything and everything, to control our diet so that, God forbid, we don't become physically stronger than the norm they have established and finally cure our cystitis.
>We are taught all our lives to put ourselves in any place but first. It's also where the men's howl about why it's "feminists" who don't fight for men comes from. And here comes veganism for the simple reason that, once again, it makes women think of anyone and anything but themselves. As long as the patriarchy blooms and smells, it will find more and more ways to oppress or distract women from their own problems.
>A woman is not equal in value to an animal and does not have to apologize to all living and non-living things for the fact of her existence and the fact that she needs some resources to live.
>The average non-wealthy woman must feel guilty about consuming animals and polluting the environment because of her upbringing of heightened empathy for everything. And the fact that huge corporations kill far more red-listed animals than this poor woman eats meat, and those same corporations litter the environment more than a pack of pads and diapers… What's also infuriating is that it's these big industries that sponsor all these schizophrenic campaigns that make already poor women spend more money out of guilt. Isn't that the least bit patriarchal?
>To say that vegan dietary restrictions harm women and support patriarchal myths is not mocking. Mocking is trying to give women another dietary restriction under the guise of candy in a culture of dieting.
>A woman still has to spend time going to doctors, taking tests, studying a lot of information on how to make a menu, what vitamins to take in addition, etc. Again a waste of time and money, which is based on pure female socialization, guilt and caring about anyone but yourself.
>I gave up meat in 2018. It's only now that I realized that I was only covering up the real reason for giving it up by saying that I felt sorry for the animals. In fact, it was a way to punish myself by giving up food for one wrong thing I did. My point is that your desire to give up meat needs to be reflexed - is it really you yourself don't want to eat it, or has shame been forced on you for eating it, or because you're trying to punish yourself for something this way?
>Orthorexia is a proposed eating disorder characterized by an unhealthy obsession with eating "pure" food. Signs of orthorexia: cutting out particular foods and food groups from the diet; obsessive focus on food choice; distress or disgust when in proximity to prohibited foods; exaggerated faith that inclusion or elimination of particular kinds of food can prevent or cure disease or affect daily well-being; moral judgment of others based on dietary choices; persistent belief that dietary practices are health-promoting despite evidence of malnutrition.
>These vegan groups are manipulative, guilt-pressuring, anti-scientific, and filled with more animal dismemberment than slaughterhouses.
>You feel sorry for everyone but yourself and the women around you. All the time you feel like a bad, disgusting predator, as if you personally kill cows and sheep. With this you hate every meat-eater, literally snatching a piece of food from her. You forget about women and think only about animals.
>Women have higher vitamin and mineral needs than men. Young women are not consuming enough iron, calcium, and other vital nutrients lacking in a vegan or vegetarian diet.
>Women are at increased risk of iron-deficiency anemia compared to men due to the monthly blood loss. The iron found predominantly in plants is non-heme iron, which isn’t absorbed as well as the heme iron found in blood and muscle.
>Humiliating a woman who eats meat, telling her she's an animal abuser is misogyny. Shaming a woman for any kind of food she eats when we are in a culture of promoting eating disorders among the female population is misogyny.

So, it took some time for me to think and reflect about this whole thing, in the end I decided to start eating fish and chicken. What I think has happened is that I was somewhat dragged into this all through the severe trauma caused by those films with a real animal torture. I developed a strong aversion to meat taste and texture, the mere thought of meat caused an unpleasant physical reaction in my mouth. I was raised in an abusive family, so hurting others is a pain point for me. The vegetarian diet has given me a strong and pleasant feeling that I am not harming others, relieving me from shame for what I eat. It also gave me the impression that since my existence don't contribute toward harming others, it means I do less evil than other people, so that objectively makes me better than them. What I didn't realize was that when you take into account the harm caused by your actions, you also have to include yourself in the calculation. Now all the problems I listed at the beginning of this post are gone. Even though I still get sick even from the smell of red meat, I am slowly restoring my relationship with intuitive eating and eat whatever my body asks for. I still love animals deeply and cherish every living thing I encounter. But before them, I now love and cherish myself.

I hope this post will help someone whose needs are clouded by her beliefs and thereby harming herself, as was the case with me. I think vegetarianism can benefit a woman, but only when she has not been manipulated into it and has the necessary resources to maintain her health.

Anonymous 215456

In my opinion, the vegans are just and correct. Nobody should eat anything that is abused, that can kill feel pain, etc.

However. I don't care about animals and I don't care about humans. I would probably eat people if there was a legal option. I wouldn't go out of my way. But I don't go out of my way to eat ribs either, and that's because they're expensive. I love ribs though. God I had some ribs yesterday, really fucking good.

Anonymous 215460

I used to be vegan, then vegetarian, and I slowly became pescatarian until I reluctantly started eating meat again. I was meat-free for years, but I realized that veganism contributed to my eating disorder, and I was becoming malnourished, even when I took supplements to make up for it. I stopped talking to my vegan friends after this because I worried they would get angry at me for "giving up" so easy, but I was low-income and trying to find vegan alternatives to everything was like developing OCD symptoms because of my eating disorder.

I do wish that non-meat options were cheaper and easier to access for people who truly believe meat is immoral. I personally consider animal death to be a fact of life, it's not something I'm happy about, but it's inevitable. I think the lies that anti-vegans spread that all farms are just cute happy paradises is to placate the guilt of a lot of meat-eaters. I noticed when I stopped eating meat and I had people ask me why I stopped, I talked to them about the conditions of slaughterhouses and the environmental impact of factory farms. They actually agreed with me, but had a "but…" reason for why they still ate meat.

Anonymous 215465

>>215460
What do vegans have to say about your own farm raised eggs and dairy ? Say I have perfectly happy roaming yard chickens… would you eat their eggs? Say I have my own dairy cow pasture and it's one cow and she has a free and easy life where she and the others aren't constantly calving.. would you eat cheese I made?

Anonymous 215540

>>215451
you're supposed to supplement b12 even as a vegetarian

Anonymous 215543

>>214942
I am vegan because I have basic moral sensibilities and self control. Most people I've met aren't seething-at-the-mouth lol Bacon XD carnists but there are a lot of "uuunggh i just love cheese too much" vegetarians and it's embarrassing for them. Like, you really think your love for cheese justifies this shit:

https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?t=3335

Anonymous 215544

>>215540
>>215451
I'm vegan and have higher b12 than my carnist brother. It's just a fact that with most normal diets in 2022 you're probably going to have vitamin deficiencies and the fact that carnists think vegans are the only ones who need to supplement is laughable. Have fun with the chronic deficiencies and ass cancer I guess 🤷🏽‍♀️

Anonymous 215548

>>215543
based no-nonsense vegan nutjob.

Love people who think like you, everybody should.

Anonymous 215553

>>215540
Been eating b12 and other supplements for months, trying to figure out what my body needs, nothing changed. I also ate a lot of soy and stuffed myself with all the beans, vegetables and fruits I could get my hands on. Always calculating what kind of food I should eat to get that nutrient and which food I should add so it would absorb better. It really was an eating disorder, one shouldn't waste so much time and resources to figure out how to feed herself properly AND also get no benefits from it in return. Not going down this path again until I'm 100% sure that I can take care of all my needs on this diet. Strongly advise other women to do the same.

Anonymous 215558

>>215553
Must have been tough to starve like that. Your symptoms really do sound like b12 deficiency though, were you taking pseudo b12 from spirulina by any chance ? It's not effective in humans, and it also competes with actual b12 in the intestine.

Anonymous 215577

Mostly nihilism with a dash of related laziness. I think the world and existence is essentially cruel and there's not much hope in changing it. I don't eat much meat at all but my main animal products currently are butter and cheese. I try to buy these from local farm stands but even then I know some suffering was involved. I'm sorry, animals.

Anonymous 215606

>Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?
Absolutely not, this is a completely arbitrary point of view and as such it can be adopted or rejected without any reason whatsoever.

Anonymous 215623

Morality is a spook

If you feel empathy with cows skip the burger, if you dont then enjoy it.

Anonymous 215632

>>215623
Morality is social.
The way people treat other creatures does inform the way you, personally, see them. And you, personally, would use the power of the state to force them to not treat animals in certain ways even if you had no personal attachment or investment in the animal and were not affected at all by that treatment.
Can you watch this youtube travelogue and honestly say otherwise?

Anonymous 215637

5f1.jpg

>>215208
I dunno if I'd agree with that. Nasim was just a year shy of 40 when she shot up YouTube HQ and she looked like a late 20s carnist.

Anonymous 215639

>>215465
(AYRT) Some are okay with it, some aren't. I know "veggans" (vegans that eat eggs from local farmers chickens) exist, and I was one for awhile when I was "transferring out" of veganism for health reasons.

Anonymous 215646

>>215553
I'm vegan and have high b12 levels literally by just taking a multivitamin a day. Do you feel embarrassed having such an evolutionary failure of a body?

Anonymous 215659

>>215646
no one gaf just cause you have high b12

Anonymous 215703

>>215659
apparently they do since every "why are you abusing animals and driving the planet into the ground?" discussion devolve into reeeeing about esoteric medical disorders that magically make it such that you retards can't absorb multivitamins

Anonymous 215709

nasim.jpg

>>215637
I would consider Nasim an exception to the rule, I think it's mostly due to her good genetics that still looked youthful and built a good muscle mass despite her diet. If I cared about the topic of veganism, I would've made a collage of the skeletal looking vegans I've came across.

Anonymous 215711

>>215558
I looked into it, and it was cyanocobalamin, but through this search I also learned that the way of consumption affects absorption. Chewable forms give more b12, and I was swallowing pills the whole time. Given my problems with the digestive system, that may well be the culprit, thank you for pointing me in that direction.

>>215646
>>215703
I think it's more about the lack of knowledge about your body and understanding how it works. More reason to do a proper research first before jumping in just to stop the feeling of guilt and "be a good person".
>Do you feel embarrassed having such an evolutionary failure of a body?
I do, actually! But it's about having an ADHD and making impulsive decisions without thinking things through, which lead to this situation. So I'm sharing my experience hoping that someone can learn from it and not hurt themselves the way I did.

Anonymous 215722

pure sex (12).jpg

Sweet tender boy before vegetarianism…

Anonymous 215723

steve sees god whi…

Same man post vegetarianism… still think abstaining from meat is the right choice? His wife peers on in the background, unaware of his seeing of demons.

Anonymous 215934

>>215711
I well I suppose I should also share my experience hoping that someone can learn from it and stop hurting animals the way I did. Going vegan was extremely easy and required nothing more than taking a daily multivitamin. Had I not made the jump and instead made excuses for myself, I'd be responsible for the cruelest abuses imaginable, climate change, deforestation, and the spread of BPAs.

Anonymous 215993

>>215934
I'm afraid that changing your diet does nothing for the animals or the planet, this capitalism train won't stop even if you jump off it. The big corps will only switch to more humane methods when exploitation becomes less profitable than anything else, and that won't happen even if you shame all the women in the world for what they eat. In the end, being vegetarian or vegan mostly comes down to feeling good about yourself rather than making big changes. I understand that you're angry about what humanity does to animals and it would be great if everybody just stopped and changed their ways. But please don't take your anger on random women, guilt tripping them into veganism is a terrible way to react to the situation, we don't have much privilege or power to change things even for ourselves, let alone others. And food shaming those who affected by ED more than anyone else is just mean. Let's support each other and our choice to prioritize our own needs, and shame the fuck out of the men for their consuming and oppressive habits instead.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not going against being vegan and I do want to get back to giving up animal products, but only this time there should be no guild or knowledge gaps involved. We must change for healthy reasons, not because others have showered us with shame and guilt.
Also don't forget that different people indeed have different circumstances, not only esoteric health issues, but also problems with finances and with access to resources. ily anon please don't be mad

Anonymous 215994

im not vegan and while i get that some vegans can be unreasonable they will never be as obnoxious as people complaining about them or bragging about loving meat to piss them off. they sound like cocaine addicts having a manic depressive episode

Anonymous 215995


Anonymous 216012

>>215221
not just not eating meat, but eating every day wasn't the norm for most of human history. feast or famine was the norm and our bodies are designed for that sort of diet. fasting is actually very good for you, I recommend fasting a day a week

Anonymous 216027

>>215993
https://thehumaneleague.org.uk/article/how-many-animals-can-you-save-by-going-vegan

uh-huh. You can't "no ethical consumption under capitalism" your way into being a lazy immoral douche nona - it doesn't convince anyone.

Anonymous 216028

>>215711
shit I didn't expect that to actually be productive. thanks for being chill/rational and trying veganism again nona!

Anonymous 216033

Meat is healthy and you are designed to eat it.

Farming meat is less damaging to the environment than modern crop farming

The meat I eat and most of the meat in the west is ethically made and compared to wild animals many of the farmed animals have okay lives.

burger tasty

Anonymous 216088

>>215465
I've seen the argument that the frequency of laying and the size of the eggs produced is a result of specific breeding practices and causes some sort of suffering to the animal. I have no idea if it's true but it is the main argument I've seen from vegans who are opposed to eating eggs even from backyard free range chickens.

Anonymous 216223

>>216033
You also are designed to pop babies once you get your periods, do you do it?

Anonymous 216229

>>216223
maybe I should've

Anonymous 216247

>>216223
physically speaking it would be more ideal. having children at a younger age produces healthier children and your body is better equipped to recover more quickly from the stress of childbirth. that's ignoring financial reality, tho. the one thing you absolutely should not do is take hormonal birth control, it plays havoc on your system.

Anonymous 216278

1648769218024.jpg

the nonas in this thread are based

veganism is an inherently radical feminist issue. female animals are exploited for their sexual characteristics, constantly raped and impregnated to create eggs and milk then killed when they cannot breed anymore.

if you purchase/consume animal products you are supporting of this sex based violence, just like if you consume pornography you are a supporter of sex based violence as well.

anyway have a good day. drink some water and tell someone you love them.

Anonymous 216280

>>216247
Not at 14

Anonymous 216286

>>216278
While veganism is superior when it comes to animal cruelty and female animals are exploited because of their reproductive capabilities, I do need to point out that male chickens are literally ground up when they are just one day old. So it's not just female animals that are exploited.

Anonymous 216288

>>216278
yeah right
and not at all guilt tripping women, not even making them feel wrong and evil just for maintening healthy and strong body, not shaming women for not wnating to live a life with extra steps men would never
tote radfem, uhuh

Anonymous 216298

The thing I dont get is how being vegan really changes anything.. it doesn't matter what I do. Even if I don't buy the milk or meat someone else will. It makes no difference if you eat it or you don't.

I think we'd have more success experimenting with labgrown milk and meat. Being vegan seems like a dead-end endeavor. To every vegan i ask this: why the hell isnt your major bioengineering???

Why aren't you thinking of ways to change how everyone consumes meat, in a way thats easy to sell? Being vegan sounds so bizarre and removed from reality. At least if you're experimenting with labgrown meat you're trying to change the problem from the ground up.

In all honesty being vegan sounds lazy in comparison. Its a reason flex n be self righteous about your diet but what is that really accomplishing?

I get that it's a comfort thing,and avoiding food that disturbs you but not hoisting it onto other people like its a solution to something.

I've read that vegans wouldn't even eat cheese or butter or eggs from a humane homestead situation, and it leaves me with more questions than answers.

Anonymous 216302

>>216278
This seems like a bit of a false equivalence to me, animal "sex based violence" has nothing to do with human sex based violence for just about everyone on the planet. Certainly not comparable to pornography production/consumption.

>drink some water and tell someone you love them.

I think I'll drink a glass of milk instead.

Anonymous 216324

>>216288
You don't need meat to be healthy, you know.

Anonymous 216363

>>215993
>capitalism too strong, just embrace it teeheehee
>Pls don't change your consoomer self, you're minuscule and it means nothing
>Don't you dare make me feel guilt and effort, too painful, let us consoom in bliss
You are either a child or a corpo PR nona.
Only thing I agree with in what you say: everyone is a work in progress.

Anonymous 216365

image.png

>>216278
based ecofeminist
>>216302
See this book and the other by the same author: Pornography of meat. The way meat is regarded in our societies is very close to the way women are objectified. The book isn't perfect but gives food for thought.
>>216286
Indeed
>>216298
This is the most stupid but true answer: you can't expect to change anything if you can't change yourself. If you can't be exemplary, then who else can be?
>Why aren't you thinking of ways to change how everyone consumes meat, in a way thats easy to sell?
You're the problem, not the other people, stop wasting time thinking up ways to convince them (or thinking you or other people should be thinking about way to convince them), while you should convince yourself since it's the only thing you have power over.
Lab meat is not there yet, what do you do in the meantime? Veganism and vegetarianism are a proper solution to the dozens of animals you're not currently buying/killing.
You can't wait the perfect solution to act, otherwise you'll never do.

Anonymous 216388

>>216278
the reason feminism will keep getting hijacked by not only trannies but by literally every other group in existence as demonstrated here is because women can't get over this mentality, you can't go anywhere with this movement if just keep helping others while they give you nothing back.

Anonymous 216401

>>216365
Accept most people aren't and dont want to be. They never have. So what is the point? When has big agriculture ever slowed down? Hasnt it just gotten bigger? Rofl your exemplary clown ass got onboard with a tiktok fad and joined a movement to give your terrestrial existence meaning. Really though it's just a diet, and you do it for social points. That is literally all I hear

There is a really low chance you actually care about them, if standing in line for mindless social approval is your idea of activism. Youre like every other zoomer appropriating something people have been doing for years. Oh my God mindlessly sipping your retarded appropriation kool-aid. When the fuck will you think for yourself? You're just doing what other people told you thinking being a mindless bitch will feed your ego but it looks like more of the same. If regurgitation is as far as you take it, you sound like every other vegan dimwit. Do you feed you cat vegan too?? You effing loons will do anything for approval I swear

Anonymous 216403

>>216365
>The way meat is regarded in our societies is very close to the way women are objectified.
If the argument is that the objectification of animals sends subliminal messages about the objectification of women then I'm not sure I buy it. Men can't breed with cows or chickens, and I reckon most of them don't have a sadistic desire to subjugate cows and chickens for sexual gratification. In fact, I reckon most men don't think very much about it at all, especially not from this angle, so I suppose the subliminal messaging isn't working very well. Also, both men and women benefit equally from the consumption of meat (without getting into how big or small this benefit actually is).

>>214977
>>214988
>>214996
>>215005
I think this is the most compelling string of posts I've read on this entire website.

>>214997
>A right to life is inherent to a sentient being itself outside of a society.
What makes you think this is true? Do you think this is a "natural" right? The natural evidence suggests otherwise; this "right" is constantly being violated in nature, and not always necessarily because the victim is being eaten. Even domestic cats kill for fun, but I don't think you'd say your cat had acted immorally for bringing you home a dead bird or mouse.

Perhaps you'd say your cat didn't know any better, or that morality doesn't apply to the actions of your cat or any non-human animal. So is it morally permissible when a fox kills a chicken despite having a surplus of food? Would it be morally permissible for a human to do the same thing? What's the difference?

Is it morally permissible for chimps to kill and cannibalise each other? Bear in mind that we are very genetically similar to chimps. If it's morally permissible for chimps to do this, when (as in, at what point of our evolution) did it stop being morally permissible for humans (or our nearest ancestors) to do it, and why?

>>214995
>Animals kill each other so let’s do it too?
I know you're being rhetorical, but why not? Personally my propensity for empathy tells me not to cause undue suffering, but that's all it is. I get a bad feeling when I think about harming an animal unnecessarily, but I don't think it can be a question of morality, because it concerns animals which in my opinion must be amoral beings. Many animals also exhibit empathy, including chimps, yet it doesn't stop them from killing other animals, or even each other. Humans aren't even close to being the most murderous animal in terms of intraspecies killings.

Anonymous 216408

>Don’t you think animal rights are the natural extension of human rights?
Nope

Anonymous 216418

>>216403
> Men can't breed with cows or chickens, and I reckon most of them don't have a sadistic desire to subjugate cows and chickens for sexual gratification.
You're missing the point which is that men want dominion over these things. Control in general. Sex is only one motivation to feel powerful. Try having a conversation with a dairy farmer and see how they talk about cows like women, even naming them women's names while they inseminate, breed and kill them to eat. In the sense that moids believe consuming meat will make them powerful, they feel the same way about "consuming" women via sexual intercourse.

Anonymous 216429

>>215019
>>216388
This is the only thing that needs to be said.

Women being "compassionate" to the point it weakens them so much they can't defend themselves only results in making your victim status slightly more comfortable.

Anonymous 216433

>>216388
>>216429
Strongly agree and I'm tired of seeing it pushed that we should be more compassionate and fair-minded.

We shouldn't be predatory but we should be absolute ruthless and stop hesitating over whats fair and what isnt. Problem is scrotes will look for every reason to call you unfair and EVEN predatory or evil, even when you're minding you're own business miles away. Simply for having your own prerogative.

If you can't embrace how ruthless, DETACHED and indifferent to "them" you are, people will emotional-labor-bait you into a coffin for the rest of your life. Tell you all the reasons you're responsible for things "gone wrong", for them or for something out in society unrelated to you or your life.

This is THE single most infuriating manipulative horseshit you will ever experience as a woman. The conniving shitty need to worm into your head and blame you, gaslight you for everything.

Cut that shit off like its a cancerous mutated appendage for good. Chop it with a meat cleaver. I'm not even joking. Rip that shit out or you will live a lie your whole damn life for pigs who were going to use you, leave your truth out without telling you, steal from you and/ or cut you down anyway.

Anonymous 216544

>>214942
burgers mainly

Anonymous 216546

>>216365

I started reading this. So far, there is no sensible argument in it against women eating meat, only endlessly pointing out that meat consumption has been and is associated with maleness and the exclusion of women.

The text is rather disorganized.

Some of the quote she references are great though.
>He handled my breast as if he were making a meatball. —Mary Gordon, Final Payments

I hope he added breadcrumbs and garlic. Some of the stuff she has penned is mind blowing.

>Through butchering, animals become absent referents. Animals in name and body are made absent as animals for meat to exist. Animals’ lives precede and enable the existence of meat. If animals are alive they cannot be meat. Thus a dead body replaces the live animal. Without animals there would be no meat eating, yet they are absent from the act of eating meat because they have been transformed into food.


How profound. I don't think I can finish this book.

Anonymous 216548

>>216418
From the book:
>The oppressor then violates this being by
object-like treatment: e.g., the rape of women that denies women freedom to say no, or the butchering of animals that converts animals from living breathing beings into dead objects. This process allows
fragmentation, or brutal dismemberment, and finally consumption.

I feel like this a stretch. If I dismember a pineapple plant to eat the pineapple, the same phrasing could largely be applied.

Anonymous 216549

>>214942
Many animals eat animals though.

Anonymous 216552

>>214942
because the ones pushing veganism are weak moids with glasses in a lab trying to run social experiments and shit. it's not meant to be healthy, it's meant to be a fad that increases dependency on the agricultural industry. eat whatever you want, it's your own life but I'm not gonna cut out meat just because some random moid in a government building wants me to.
>the animals
the only animals I care about are my 2 cats and neither of them are vegans.

Anonymous 216557

>>216027
>no ethical consumption under capitalism
Never said that. You can consume ethically under capitalism, but don't expect capitalism to change its ways of providing just because you changed your ways of consuming is what I'm saying. Basically, in my opinion, you as one person make no difference for this beast.

The link you provided makes it sound like you're actually making a huge change, one saved animal per day, etc. The problem is that this article does not provide any proper references for making these statements. Like, how exactly am I saving this animal? Are there any data or research that provides a real correlation between one person stopping consuming and how it affects the market? This article references another article which references another article and all of them mostly talk about two things: 1) theoretical possibility to make a change, but only as a part of a bigger crowd and only in a long term run; 2) consumption of the meat is declining.
So, the first point is against you personally saving anyone, your choices can only matter if you are part of a large wave of consumers. And I see how perhaps if your cause has a huge number of followers, it will change the amount of animal products produced. But it still looks like a kind of a stretch and theorizing, nothing even close to a specific digit of your personal influence from the vegan calculator.
The second point talks about reducing consumption. This is a good thing, but it may not really have much impact, because consumption does not equal production. The company continues to produce the same amount of meat, the stores continue to buy the same amount of meat because displays of food items sell much better when they look full, and if something doesn't sell because of reduced consumption, at best the store recycles that meat and sells it as part of another dish for example, and at worst it throws away the unsold goods. While the former is preferable in terms of profit, the latter is still happening in huge numbers, and it's crazy. Again, it's more showing that your choice has no direct effect on production in any way.

Here's more specific data on meat production and consumption, so you can accurately track how things change over the years and base your arguments around it.
https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production
Here you can see that production has decreased slightly over the last couple of years, but as of now it is difficult to say whether it will become a trend, given that before there were also decreases after peaks, followed by another increase. Let's hope for the better anyway. The graphs also show well the decline in meat production in China after the reform by the government. It looks like in the near future other countries will introduce a system of restrictions on meat production after reaching a certain peak, which will stop the constant upward trend.
I may be pessimistic since I tend to believe that such great changes are created only by those in power, but if you are more comfortable believing in change at the expense of everyone's personal accomplishments, then I won't discourage you. In that case, vegan movement needs to constantly recruit new followers, and this is better done through positive interaction experiences (like the one I had with this lovely nonita >>216028 ) than through shitting on people and being a big meanie. Because from the perspective of people for whom there is no direct connection between one person giving up meat and saving the lives of animals at production - the anger of the person who thinks there is a direct connection is not understandable. So a mutual understanding might not be reached, therefore no new recruits, therefore no change.

>>216363
No-no, while I don't believe in the big impact of a little person, I'm not agitating against changing your consumption habits. Even if your choice doesn't change anything in the lives of the animals, it still makes a big difference in your life: you stop participating in the system of cruelty, it makes you feel good about yourself, your morals are not suffering, you can be more in peace and generate more love, plus you're more aware about this whole topic and can spread the world and start discussions. I too experienced all these nice changes, but along with them I also got some bad consequences, which was hard to connect with the vegetarian diet because "how can something so good bring me harm." That's why I talk about being thoughtful and not rushing into it, because getting into movement does require an effort to study the broad topic of nutrition and health. There's nothing antagonizing about my position, really.

Also, the belief that by stopping the consumption of animal products you directly end animal suffering leads to attacks on people for not doing the same. All of this only creates negativity for you and others, drains your activist energy and has no effect on the lives of animals in this industry. I think views spread much better through discussions than through quarrels.

Anonymous 216558

>>216418
Then if we focus solely on solving "the men" problem first, "the animal industry" problem will solve itself immediately afterwards. And so we stopped channeling our campaigning power into veganism and started promoting feminism, yay.

Anonymous 216562

I don't want to be malnourished and sick all the time and plants can't provide a complete protein. Animal organs are the single healthiest thing you can consume with the most nutrients out of any other food.

And haven't you thought about plants rights?
Maybe you should kill yourself if you are so against killing other organisms.

Anonymous 216570

>>216548
You're missing the logic. Animals aren't "for food" any more than women are "for" sex and procreation. A pineapple isn't a sentient, breathing thing. A cow is. A chicken is. A pig is. They want to live and be free of rape and imprisonment as much as women do. The objectification of women in the sexual and reproductive realm is comparable to the objectification of animals in the food realm because both of these group's beings are appropriated in worldwide industries dedicated to their reproductive demise and in many cases at the cost of their lives. It's reproductive appropriation, telling another living being what they can and cannot do with their body, or forcing them to comply, or raping them. Like the war industry relies on women pumping out children for the nationalistic machine, the meat and dairy industry relies on the reproductive exploitation of female animals through forced impregnation with the justification that it is a necessary human right to rape them, steal their children from them and then consume their children. A cow being forced into a stall, held still with machinery, then raped and impregnated by a machine is how most people get the milk and cheese they love so much. It's hypocritical to be feminist and not vegan if you claim to care about animals at all.

Anonymous 216575

>>216278
>constantly raped and impregnated to create eggs

You do know that egg production happens without a rooster, right? The only difference is that the eggs won't be fertilized without a male of the species. Most people who keep backyard chickens for eggs don't have a rooster because they're assholes

Anonymous 216583

It's nice to have a proper debate for once in there. Thank you to all contributors, even the morons I disagree with, I'm learning some things.

Anonymous 216634

1667763301072.png

>>216583
Even the rudest, stupidest nona here is caring and brilliant, and argues from a place of sincere wanting to help her fellow woman. You all are gems. do not forget that.

Anonymous 216637

>>216324
personally I do
and vegan diet, if we are speaking about op post, excludes much much more than meat

Anonymous 216793

>>216570
I missed nothing. The "logic" is just a bunch of emotional arguments and subjective morality.

Anonymous 216805

F50CFA80-EE20-41E9…

Even evil dummy Ben(imo) shapiro realizes veganism is the right thing to do. He just admits he’s a hypocrite (evil).

If you also fall into this category (be honest with yourself) ask yourself,

What right do you have to be a victim if you’re victimizing others/animals?
How can you say “that’s not fair!” . If someone hurts you while you pay for others to hurt animals?

How can you believe in “karma” or something like it and not blame yourself when something bad happens to you as you continue to do bad things to animals?

Pic related from video a vegan activist for 7 years (no protein deficiency haha)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Vgb3PBzbg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tPUIJ8k_bcY

Anonymous 216806

>>216805
Also,

Your purchases DO matter. Honestly going vegan can save as few lives as a few dozen a year to a couple hundred a year it really depends on the person and estimation (government subsidies animals and their feed) (still kill with crop deaths combine harvesters and pesticides)

Still you are saving lives and preventing rights from being violated even by the conservative estimates by going vegan.

Do the right thing.

Anonymous 216808

>>216805
Ugly moid, not watching

Anonymous 216813

>>216805
I don't remember consenting to this life.
And since when life and lives matter?

Anonymous 216815

>>216793
You could say this about literally any ethical argument, including feminist ones



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