abortions Anonymous 12757
Hot topic, but what's your opinion of it? I don't like the fact that so many young people act like it's nothing, it's a quite serious topic with many angles to look at it from.
In my opinion abortions should be available until the 8th week, which is around the time the nervous system and brain reach a level of development where the fetus can be called "conscious".
Special circumstances should be available for rape victims.
>>12757>abortions should be available until the 8th week
? You know this is counted from the date of your period not conception, right? You can't even schedule an abortion until the 4-5th week, when the fetus becomes visible. That plus the waiting periods mandated in some US states, lack of accessibility to offices that perform abortions, and having to take time off work make yours a very restrictive take. You should probably do more research before you just come up with numbers and opinions.
I say the beginning of the second trimester in case there are abnormalities or the mother didn’t know she was pregnant and had been binge drinking/doing drugs.
the only correct answer
should be illegal. life is sacred
I've always found the viability argument to be fraudulent. This would imply that because a baby can start surviving out of the womb (with medical support) in New York a month or so earlier than a baby in rural Africa, that somehow the baby in New York becomes a "person" faster.
In the end abortions for rape, incest and medical emergencies for the mother are only 1% of abortion cases, they should be allowed at any point, period.
Still trying to decide how I feel about the other 99% of abortions.
And pregnancies that threaten the mother's sacred life?
in 2004 only 4% of abortions were made because the mothers life was in danger. the other 96% were for reasons such as "i'm not ready", "dont want to interfere with education or career". 96% of abortions are not made because the mothers life is at stake, they are just made because she wants to kill another human
the thing is, if only abortions for rape and medical emergency are allowed, a lot of people will try to find loopholes to prove that it wasn't "really" rape or even that it doesn't "really" threaten the mother's life so they can deny abortions to as many women as possible.
at the end of the day, while technically murder, it is necessary and should be available on demand. better that than having more unwanted children born
My idealistic approach would be to perform the abortion and immediately tie her tubes (if her pregnancy was not a result from rape or life-threatening).
But I'm not sure if we can always have a 100% guaranteed way of proving the risks and the rape.
There are 125,000 abortions worldwide per day. That's still 50,000 abortions a day done because the woman's life is in danger. How do you verify if the abortion is life-threatening or from rape? Like >>12766
said people will exploit the loophole.
The fact is that if women who need an abortion will get one, even for the reasons like "not being ready." In the past women died from trying to abort themselves with hangers, poisonous teas, shoving slippery elm up their vagina, etc. Many women died this way until doctors offered abortions under the table as it's a simple 5 minute medical procedure. More abortion restrictions will lead us back to women needlessly dying
sorry 5,000* a day, almost 2 million a year
>>12766>the thing is, if only abortions for rape and medical emergency are allowed, a lot of people will try to find loopholes to prove that it wasn't "really" rape or even that it doesn't "really" threaten the mother's life so they can deny abortions to as many women as possible.
And? Loopholes exist everywhere. Your argument also suffers because those who were not raped or have a medical emergency can also exploit loopholes as well to abort. The argument cuts both ways.>at the end of the day, while technically murder, it is necessary and should be available on demand. better that than having more unwanted children born
I don't think this has anything to do with what you said before, and I'm not certain why these things were packaged together.
i think all children should be wanted and that it's better for unwanted (for literally any reason) children not to be born at all.
Understandable, and a common sentiment. I'm not sold on it, but I'm aware it exists.
>>12762>life is sacred
would you really call a clump of cells sacred? I get this argument if the fetus is above 3 months old, since it's a conscious human being with a brain and a nervous system by that point.
But before that, and especially before 8 weeks? No.
>>12773>would you really call a clump of cells sacred?
NTA, but you are also a giant clump of cells.
None of those anons but you should put this pedantic comeback back where you found it girl
What makes the clump of cells you are different from the clump of cells that is a fetus? You mention a nervous system, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, as those are just cells too.
You're replying to the wrong person like I said I'm NTA
Question for the class: If there were a test that told you your unborn fetus was going to be a tranny, would you abort? I would.(Belongs in terf thread )
Against her will? Why? Some people aren't ready to care for an entire other person, but might want to in the future.
I literally don't see a problem with abortion as long as the foetus doesn't feel pain (so before a nervous system, brain and consciousness are formed). Some people aren't ready to take care of a child, and I think all reasons are valid. I would rather see a foetus painlessly die than watch a woman go through a life-threatening experience, live in poverty, give up her career/education, have something for an abusive partner/rapist hold over her head, see a child give birth, have a baby born with serious disabilities/illnesses, allow incest babies to exist etc.
This, but expand it to all people. There is nothing wrong with killing someone as long as you do it painlessly, doesn't matter your reason.
I know you're trying to be funny, but I actually agree with assisted death too. Everyone should have the right to choose when and how they die and be able to do so with dignity. Our society keeps very sick and elderly people alive against their will, where they will eventually die in an unfamiliar place, woozy from a cocktail of drugs and delirious.
I'm not really sure how you could compare a living, breathing, conscious, feeling human being to a clump of cells that can't do any of the above though.
I not only support abortion but also support child euthanasia. If a baby is born sick or deformed, kill it. Also, orphanages in my country need to be reformed and funded more to stop them from being lumpenproletariat mills.
>>12784>I know you're trying to be funny, but I actually agree with assisted death too.
Not just assisted death, if someone dying would benefit you, and you can kill them painlessly, there is no moral reason you shouldn't be able to kill them.>I'm not really sure how you could compare a living, breathing, conscious, feeling human being to a clump of cells that can't do any of the above though.
A living, breathing, conscious human being is also just a bunch of cells. There's nothing that makes a human not a bunch of cells unless you're stating a human soul exists.
A foetus can't think or feel pain, hun.
She will be informed. If she doesn't want the tubes tied then she doesn't have to get the elective abortion.
Next time she wants to get pregnant she still has the option of IVF
I'm well aware, your point? Kill an adult fast enough they don't feel pain either.
>>12790>Pretending a developing fetus has the same capacity for pain as a grown man
Capacity? When did that become relevant? Your only point was and I quote>I literally don't see a problem with abortion as long as the foetus doesn't feel pain>doesn't feel pain
If you kill an adult human fast enough they don't feel pain or think about dying either. Sure, they have the capacity, but that's not what we're talking about. If it is, then are you arguing that it's only okay to kill the fetus because it doesn't have the capacity to feel pain?
the thing is that still means there are almost 44 million unnecessary abortions each year. 44 million deaths for no apparent reason.
I'll go out and get an extra one in your honor
Ah that would explain it, then go ahead, please quote me where, as you say, I pretend adults and fetuses have the same capacity for pain.
>>12796>Kill an adult fast enough they don't feel pain either.
Bad memory you have. Anyway hope to god you're too young to vote
The position>adults can feel pain
and the position>kill an adult fast enough and they don't feel any pain
do not contradict each other. There's even documentation for this. Read about the Byford Dolphin incident for a good example of dying instantly.
Yeah looking it up if you destroy someone's brain in less than .22~ of a second it's literally impossible for them to even receive the signal anything happened at all let alone feel pain. They're just gone.
I think that whoever wants an abortion should be able to get one. I wouldn't want my family or children to have to deal with broken kids, who are likely to repeat their parents fucked up behavior, due to genetics and their environment. That being said, I wouldnt want to associate with someone who got an abortion, and I would never get an abortion if I had an unplanned pregnancy with my husband.
(inb4 WHAT IF U GET RAPED!!! the percentage of people who get an abortion due to rape is very small)
>>12801>I wouldnt want to associate with someone who got an abortion
about 1 in 4 women will have an abortion by 45, so odds are you are without knowing it
assuming i am friends with more than 4 women…
"associate with" doesn't mean being friends with… just saying you probably interact with them already
assuming i regularly interact with more than 4 women….
Same way we treat adults, if they need life support then their fate is decided by their loved ones. So if it can't live outside the womb without medical intervention, it's mom's choice.
Bigger question: why aren’t millions of women having safe sex? Abortion is not a positive good, it is a necessary evil when women AND men can’t be bothered to use a condom.
Except when mother’s life endangered, abortion should be stigmatized and fined like this:
Fetus at 0-8ish weeks: No fine to abort but the procedure is not a free right. If the sex was consensual, father pays for procedure plus a fine. If non-consensual, father pays the fine and the usual charges are pressed.
Fetus at 8-20 weeks: killing a human life, but mother may have valid reasons for aborting, so there is a fine but not illegal to abort. Same rules for consent as above.
Fetus 20+ weeks: abortion illegal and a fine for procuring/getting abortion. We can’t keep up the narrative of “akshually the fetus is a parasite,” I would disown my mom if she ever thought that of me.
Again, these apply to abortions where mom is not in danger of death. I’m just throwing out numbers for fetus age, but the point is to pick a cutoff for when we are absolutely sure we’re not killing a human.
Not easy to abuse this system at all.
fines? my abortion was already $1000 out of pocket
did you make him use a condom?
Yes, read first half of post
you know there's more than one form of birth control right
That’s my point, there are options. If I cant be bothered to use any of them, I’m responsible for the pregnancy.
Again, see the post. No-fault abortions when the fetus is not human, which is equivalent to your tooth case. If there is a possibility of human life, pay a fine, this is not equivalent to the tooth case. If definitely human, don’t allow.
I agree we can try to remediate irresponsible behavior, up to a point.
No, nothing is written in stone
Just trying to make a generous policy, given how grossly unempathetic pro-lifers usually are. You don’t just pop out a baby and life is peachy afterwards, it is life changing.
I agree.Personally I wouldn't have sex without entertaining the (however remote) possibility of a baby. Dick is not important or necessary.
Child support laws should be better tho. And social safety net.
Here's my experience, take it how you will
I had one in college something like 10 years ago. The fetus was 6 weeks. I did it for many reasons: Too afraid of my conservative family's reaction; never wanted children in the first place; boyfriend at the time was a neckbeard who only cared about videogames and would've made a horrible father; the list goes on.
Today, I'm much happier than I used to be, with a wonderful man who I'm marrying next year. I'm working from home which I enjoy. My mental state is pretty solid, haven't been to therapy in several years. I have goals and am working to meet them. I feel like I'm really getting to the good part of life. Most people would kill to be in my position.
After all, I did. It's sure made things a hell of a lot easier.
But deep down, I know. I know this lovely simple life of mine is fully undeserved. Because I know exactly what it cost. There is nothing I can do now to reverse it, because I made my decision years ago based on colossal fear.
I am utterly aware of how painful and difficult my existence would be if I kept the child. But I'm also aware of how the precious things I have now were gained by sacrificing someone else's ability to experience precious things. And there is no way to feel truly okay about that.
Life isn’t really sacred. It’s just there. If i PLANNED a baby and actually got pregnant on purpose and testing told me it would turn out like this, I’d get an abortion asap.
I don't know anon. I don't think we have a duty to create new people even in situations where we could give them a perfectly good home, and it sounds like your hypothetical child would have had a hard and stressful childhood with an irresponsible father, an unprepared mother, and probably lots of fights, tension, and uncertainty because of that. These things often have lifelong mental health consequences. Rather than only thinking of the positive experiences that the fetus never grew up to have, what about the suffering and pain you spared a hypothetical person from by acknowledging that the conditions were not right?
I get that it isn't so simple, but I feel like bad human lives are much, much worse than good lives are good. Many depressed people wish they had never been born, but being born can also never be undone. So creating a person should not be done lightly or because of an arbitrary accident. To me, a six-week fetus is not comparable to a person because it doesn't have preferences and attachments to the world the way adults or even young infants and many animals have, so we may intuitively feel like it's more of a person than e.g. an oocyte, but this isn't really the case because the things that give us personhood aren't there yet. No person was wronged because of your decision.
You did good. Human life is finite, use yours wisely. I know women who have had abortions and it was never an easy decision. In public discourse, everyone seems to focus on the loss of a potential life. But birth can very easily lead to the death of the mother. It seems that Americans have been insulated from the reality of maternal death, otherwise they'd take it much more seriously. Add to that the stresses of being a single parent and having little childcare support, and the decision to abort is a no-brainer. You have no reason to blame yourself. If politicians truly valued the sanctity of life then they would have already reformed the health system and not left the bottom 90% to rot
The point of viability has already been determined, so not really.
It might be life changing, but in the overwhelming majority of cases, no one forced that dick in you hun.
>>12830>But birth can very easily lead to the death of the mother.
Which is why medical exceptions should be allowed, but that's less than 1% of abortion cases. Yes, it's dangerous. Sure, I'd state the caveat to allow medical exceptions, but that's only 1 baby getting aborted for medical reasons and 99 babies getting aborted for definitely not medical reasons.
I'm gonna take the side of other anons here, and say that it's ok to do it as long as the fetus hasn't developed a fully functioning nervous system and brain, and hasn't gained consciousnes yet (so before the 2nd trimester, maybe a little into it).
I, however, hate just how normalized being cruel about abortion is being.
This is a very important thing, not something to laugh about, not something to make fun of, many women feel extreme guilt while doing it, or after doing it, and they are simply forced into this horrible situation of having to end their own child's life prematurely because of various circumstances.
Yet many people make fun of abortion while being "pro-choice". They call fetuses parasites, they talk about how they want to crush them with their hands or teeth, etc.
I absolutely despise the "pro-choice" people on twitter who make fun of this situation. How can they even be such massive fucktards.
The “just don’t have sex!” argument huh. We’re adults and we have relationships. Sounds like you got issues trying to tell people what to do with their own bodies in general.
Twitter users are psychopaths
I agree that clinically fetuses are parasites but it's not the word I would use in conversation because I'm not socially retarded
>>12841>Sounds like you got issues trying to tell people what to do with their own bodies in general.
What's your opinion on drunk drivers?
That they’re hurting full grown bodies outside of theirs.
A more pertinent argument is should people with lung cancer or liver cirrhosis be denied medical care because they smoked and drank too much?
I believe poor people with 2 kids shouldn’t have MORE kids that they can’t feed of raise properly. However I would never support a law that forces them to have an iud installed or other birth control bc even if i think their decisions are shit, it is not my place to control others stupidity.
>>12844>That they’re hurting full grown bodies outside of theirs.
Why do you care?
And to add to your drunk driver argument.
Should we ban all alcohol because some people abuse it?
Should the drunk driver be left to die on the hospital bed because they made a bad decision?
>>12846>Should we ban all alcohol because some people abuse it?
Sure.>Should the drunk driver be left to die on the hospital bed because they made a bad decision?
I care bc that full grown body could be me or a loved one.
A fetus no one has any connections to will not hurt anyone or be missed if it disappears.
If remove a parasite from a woman's body without her knowledge have I done anything wrong?
>>12848>I care bc that full grown body could be me or a loved one.
And?>A fetus no one has any connections to will not hurt anyone or be missed if it disappears.
Why does that matter?
Ban all alcohol and all sex lol. Control issues. >>12850
So you have no real arguments asides that you think people should all follow your moral code. Aka control issues. Got it.
But i guess i see your point. If a fetus life doesn’t matter why should any other human life? For example you or I wouldn’t miss each other if one died.
Funny you care so much for fetuses disappearing yet you acknowledge it doesn’t matter if anyone dies.
I don't care if anyone dies, I'm trying to find the moral consistent thread that you're spinning. I'm pretty apathetic, just intellectually curious.
Not that anon, but I've tried following your guys' argument and just ended up confused
I think you make a point of showing little empathy and tend to distance yourself from other peoples' problems like they're a mathematical abstraction or an exercise in logic. But you can't extricate yourself from the problem of abortion as long as you live, assuming you are, in fact, a woman. Acting as if you're so above everything helps no one
>>12854>I think you make a point of showing little empathy and tend to distance yourself from other peoples' problems like they're a mathematical abstraction or an exercise in logic.
Yes, that's kind of the point of an intellectual discussion.>But you can't extricate yourself from the problem of abortion as long as you live, assuming you are, in fact, a woman.
That's kind of rude to woman who can't get pregnant (and no I don't mean troons).
>>12855>You must have no emotions to use logic
You can't use logic without emotions in order to value-assess the best course of actionhttps://www.thecut.com/2016/06/how-only-using-logic-destroyed-a-man.html
>That's kind of rude to woman who can't get pregnant (and no I don't mean troons).
And so? I have PCOS and haven't menstruated in several years. My mother had three ectopic pregnancies before successfully carrying me to term, her only child. I have never expected to be fertile. Don't hold that over anyone.
>>12856>You can't use logic without emotions in order to value-assess the best course of action
I'm well aware.>https://www.thecut.com/2016/06/how-only-using-logic-destroyed-a-man.html
This is just explaining how conscientiousness and intellect aren't the same thing as far as I can tell. It's not lack of emotion that's the problem as much as lack of practical application of generalized intelligence.>b-but the doctor man said so
No existing doctor understands the gap between generalized intelligence and conscientiousness either. We only know that they both exist and are different.
Furthermore, if the article were to be believed, the man would be a superb conversation partners as he's able to cover a vaste range of options. If he switched to a field that mostly just relied on abstractions instead of his previous field he'd probably do a lot better.>And so?
It seems rude. The fact you have to justify it with those two other sentences seem to indicate you also understand that it is rude.
Abortions are a good thing. There are too many people in the world already
This, life begins at conception.
So you're against the morning after pill too?
I don't believe in using any form of contraception, no.
Wait so like not even condoms? You only have sex for the purposes of procreation?
>>12902>Wait so like not even condoms?
Nope, no form of contraception.
>You only have sex for the purposes of procreation?
I don't have sex but ideally yeah, only with the intent of trying to make a baby. but if you mean in general I think others should make that choice themselves, so long as it's not pushed on them to be promiscuous as fuck by society or whatever.
To be completely transparent I am a Catholic and my faith vaguely molded these beliefs, but even before it I wasn't too keen on pills and such, I'm very suspicious of man-made shit that interferes with our bodies.
Sorry I'm at school and mobileposting so I'm a bit slow.
You sound much younger than I am if you're in school and honestly I think that's a good mindset to have when you're young, so good for you.
I didn't mean for it to sound like I'm still in middle or highschool, I'm in uni and 20 y/o, not sure how much younger/older that makes me compared to you, but I'm used to being a little younger than the others I talk online.
It is a bit disheartening to see what few girl friends I have do the direct opposite of what I described, and most ending up crashing and burning once they've been (pumped and)dumped. Like it hurts seeing them put themselves through such awful experiences, and while none of them has had a pregnancy scare and aborted (yet? to my knowledge at least) I'm deathly afraid it could happen one day and what the mental damage that might do to them down the line. And me being a schizo and not trusting the birth control pills doesn't help.
sorry for the /rant
I never trusted birth control pills either. But the issues from my uterine fibroids kept getting worse so I finally tried them.
I lost ten pounds. Acne cleared up. Less bloating. I stopped bleeding constantly. Most importantly my friendships and family ties improved because my massive bitchy mood swings calmed down.
Not everyone will have the same results of course. People with balanced hormones could end up messing themselves up with it. Just saying it’s not as scary as you think.
Much like a down payment on a house, I don't think you should be allowed to have children until you can cough up an estimate of the cash that will cover the first 5 years of its life.
Tis my other point. Would we have the abortion debate at all if we were more judicious with our vaginas?
>>12841>The “just don’t have sex!” argument huh.
NTA but yeah, and? It's a valid argument, it's childish to have sex unprotected and then complain you got pregnant, or worse yet, abort the child. Box of condoms is like 5 bucks, oral exists, and chastity is the best way to remove any pregnancy risk.
>>12848>A fetus no one has any connections to
Quite literally connected to the mother by the umbilical cord.
>will not hurt anyone or be missed if it disappears.
Post abortion/miscarriage depression. Our bodies literally traumatize us to prevent us from losing a child.
Babies are NOT parasites, parasites live by actively harming their host, a baby doesn't harm the mother or bring any complications to her health unless in ridiculously extreme and rare cases.
different anon. I'm personally anti-abortion (unless the case of rape or if it may kill the mother) but acting like pregnancy is usually this 100% healthy thing is extremely stupid and kills our anti-abortion argument. Tons of women cannot carry a child without medical help and close monitoring, and I mean tons. Yeah, maybe it's not more than 50% of women but it's so significant it's cruel to pretend it's a rarity.
but yeah, babies aren't "parasites". what the fuck?
Complications can and sometimes do happen, but I blame the Western world for poisoning us. Pregnancy related ills almost never occur in places like Africa where they have 4 kids per woman, the only complications that happen in that region has to do with the actual birthing part, and thankfully that's the only segment of pregnancy that we in the West seem to have fixed almost entirely, there are so little deaths at birth that it's thankfully negligible.
You’re the one sounding immature. This is the go-to argument when people say no birth control is 100%. Even women who have had their tubes tied can get pregnant. But hey, even if you’re married and already have more than 3 kids, just like don’t have sex!
>>12948>But hey, even if you’re married and already have more than 3 kids, just like don’t have sex!
Correct, or you could always do intercrural.
Yikes. Are you the anon that believes sex should only be for procreation?
Intercrural isn’t where the gspot is honey.
No, but how about sex should only be done when the possibility of getting pregnant is acceptable?>>12952
You sound like a moid.>it doesn't FEEL as good when I do it like that!
Oh boo hoo
Actually I’m a girl. How would I feel any pleasure from a dick rubbing between my legs? That gives the male friction. Not the woman.
Wanting sex and not wanting to get pregnant is a thing. Taking the pill to avoid pregnancy is a thing. I have taken a plan b pill even though I was on the pill just to be safe. Trust. If I found out I was pregnant anyway, I’d immediately get the abortion pill to dissolve it. Your own morality about when and why people should doesn’t actually matter to me. What does matter is if you vote for laws that punish people that don’t agree with your abstinence beliefs.
In this thread: rape apologists.
>like, people can't resist the urge sis, like, it's a natural impulse that you just have to indulge in it, you can't just not do it, it's natural to want to
>>12956>Actually I’m a girl. How would I feel any pleasure from a dick rubbing between my legs? That gives the male friction. Not the woman.
<but honey I don't WANT to wear the condom, it doesn't feel as good!
This is you.>Wanting sex and not wanting to get pregnant is a thing.
I am aware, it's stupid, but I'm aware.>Taking the pill to avoid pregnancy is a thing.
I am aware.>I have taken a plan b pill even though I was on the pill just to be safe.
Congrats for the lack of forethought that put you in that situation.>Your own morality about when and why people should doesn’t actually matter to me.
And yours doesn't matter to me either.>What does matter is if you vote for laws that punish people that don’t agree with your abstinence beliefs.
That's more a problem with democracies/republics. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Are you like 12? A moid perhaps? Can you not go 5 minutes without thinking of sex? Yes, not having penis in vagina sex is the only full-proof method of contraception, if you don't want children that badly then don't do it. There are plenty of sexual stuff you can do with your partner if you are that far gone…>>12950>Are you the anon that believes sex should only be for procreation?
No, that's me. And that's neither here nor there.
>>12957>natural to want to.
It actually is natural though? Unless a person is asexual. If sex didn’t feel good, a whole lot less of us would exist.
Idk why you idiots pretend condoms don't break too. “Just wear the condom! They never break!”
Either way I will still have sex with my ONE partner, take my birth control, and have an early term abortion if all else fails.
>>12960>It actually is natural though?
Just like the moid urge to rape is. Natural.
>>12960>take my birth control
"Birth control pills may alter the size of a small part of women's brains, which could be making them angry and depressed – but does not affect their intelligence, according to a small study. Women taking the oral contraceptive were found in the study to have a smaller hypothalamus than women not taking the pill."https://inews.co.uk/news/science/birth-control-pills-womens-brains-shrink-study-370834
You don't understand, she absolutely needs to have sex. Who cares if the birth control physically changes the shape of her brain, she can LITERALLY not survive without it. This does not at all sound like the logic moids use to justify their shittiness.
Sexual urges are natural, nobody is saying otherwise or you or anyone else should be shamed for it. Obsession and an insistence on wanting to practice it regardless of consequences is what (at least I) have a problem with.
Reported you for being a moid.
Unrelated, but saw a tv document of an african mother, who had a birth complication, tried to eat some herbs to cure it, and the baby rotted in her vag for days. The doctor pulled the baby out and it exploded into mush and pus in his hands, right there in the screen. JFC I actually vomited on the spot.
Honestly in terms of abortion, I find almost all cases of abortion morally acceptable. Unless someone goes out of their way to get pregnant and then abort in the latest stage (which shouldn't even be illegal as to find the intentions of a person almost impossible without major invasive orders) but rather that case is immoral. I've honestly heard good cases for infanticide very early on since the conscious experience of being can't really be described as a full person but on a practical level completely inapplicable. Legally, (politically and economically) abortion should be 100% legal until birth.
>>12966>Honestly in terms of abortion, I find almost all cases of abortion morally acceptable.>Unless someone goes out of their way to get pregnant and then abort in the latest stage (which shouldn't even be illegal as to find the intentions of a person almost impossible without major invasive orders) but rather that case is immoral.>Legally, (politically and economically) abortion should be 100% legal until birth.
So almost all cases of abortion are moral… unless someone goes out of their way to abort in a late stage… but all abortions should be legal until the baby is pushed out of the vagina…
>if you're not down with senseless baby genocide apologists's mental gymnastics you're a moid!!! >:(
Seek sunlight. You don't even get the satisfaction of getting a (You)
>>12976>”baby genocide”>has no clue about women’s anatomy >thinks 4scrote (You)’s are a thing here
You need to go back.
Go ahead brainlet, call it a clump of cells or whatever other coping mechanism you've developed to pretend like you're not defending murder.
Coathangers are indeed dangerous weapons.
Abortion is just self population control. Yes you are killing something but it doesn't matter. The long term economical and social benefits make it worth it. There's a reason most 1st world countries allow it and why lots of poor and dumb 3rd world ones don't.
I hate how lightly many people treat abortions, not for moral reasons, but because this can mean that women who are in a crisis end up completely emotionally unprepared for how physically and mentally devastating it can be, even without factoring in your moral opinion, or that of your family etc.
A friend recently had an abortion, via "the pill", and told me she's still bleeding and in pain almost a month later. And that's the easy one…
>>12985>The long term economical and social benefits make it worth it.
Until you go below replacement level and start running out of new people to maintain the economy when the majority of the population becomes elderly and living off benefits, then you get governments and NGOs import an entire different culture to "rejuvenate" said country and keep GDP high. Like Europe right now.
Joking about something that has harmed, mutilated, and outright killed women in the past sure does prove… something…
No jokes here, it’s just the future you’d choose. It’s a handy weapon when the only other options are to die in childbirth or share parenthood with a rapist.
But then, you’re a moid, not like you care.
>what’s the problem, you just get a beer belly for 9 months and then shit it out one day
>damn that sounds easy as fuck, females are just being whiny again, there are absolutely no risks involved for her at any point
>oh you hate the fetus? nah you will learn to love it and raise it well, surely it won’t grow up as an unloved sack of shit who becomes the next Hitler, trust me, female instincts will prevent that
>just suck it up sis
Again, another thread derailing into moid witch-hunting and strawman arguments.
It is what he implied. But then>tranime girl
You’re not even trying to hide your Y-chromosomes.
Europe is not below replacement level. Some places even have higher rates than the US lately. It's just an excuse to import browns.
And even if it was, forcing births is not the right way to solve a declining population. Multiple unplanned children do more harm than good. Just look at all the countries that do that and see how inferior they are. The ones who reproduce the most in no-abortion places are ALWAYS the poor, the uneducated, the minorities.
Abortion is a good thing, it should be free and available on demand
Their argument was that allowing abortions hurts the economy because people don't reproduce. That was just to explain that the demographic groups that do reproduce under no abortions laws aren't the type that help the economy.
Being uneducated is not good tho. Not for you or anybody. And I don't mean fancy upper education, just decent education at school and at home while growing up.
Nice straw-man, did you build it yourself?
I think abortion is murder and immoral but I know that if I had a child that I knew would have mental or physical disabilities I would get an abortion. So I recognize my hypocrisy and don't mind if abortion is legal
i don't even care if abortion is seen as murder, i refuse to carry a baby if i truly don't want it. i've struggled with body dysmorphia throughout my entire life, even before puberty. i don't need the ugly bodily changes that pregnancy would induce, so i wouldn't be comfortable going through any pregnancy even if i was planning to give it away for adoption.
plus i wouldn't want some random kid that i regret giving birth to trying to find me, his/her birth mother, like many adoptees do later on in life
sorry anon, outside of minorities people who are in no place to have children currently shouldn't be raising children. We shouldn't encourage the idea of people who don't know if their child is going to have a meal tomorrow or if they can help their child with their homework to have kids
Got so many horror stories from uneducated/poor parents. I know multiple people who gave their baby honey, water, and black bean bottles. One of those same parents were convinced their baby got "cursed by an evil eye" because it got really sick one time. They gave it teas and did some ceremony to lift the curse.
Also the way these people talk to such little kids… I heard one tell his son he was going to "fuck him up" if he cried. Always threatening them with violence.
I think it's good that this option exists for people in difficult situations. But I wouldn't get an abortion myself as I am in a good situation and would be able to raise a child even if I was on my own.
Honestly, I don't think any woman would take that choice as lightly as people make it out to be. Do people really think any sane person would use this very invasive method as birth control more than once?
Thats pro-life logic behind "just birth that child it literally doesnt hurt you", retard. Dont even dare to deny it
you will never be a witch
You know, I want to say women should have the right to choose for their specific situation, but we've clearly fucked it up. Worldwide, there's been an estimated 2-3 billion abortions in the past 50-60 years, and we're up to around 50 million per year. For context, all deaths from all wars in all human history is about a billion, so 1/3 the loss of life, of what we've done in half a century. It's so commonplace that in a lot of areas/countries, there's more abortions than births, even in countries with declining population. The scale of this thing is just completely off the charts I can't even comprehend it. Whenever I think about it I can't help but feel like the world is actually ending. We're so broken we kill our children by the billions in an already declining population.
Abortion isn't murder
And it's better to abort fetuses than birthing them in an already overpopulated world where most of their life will be suffering and problems
That's just cope. Obviously it's different but I lost one of my pregnancies at 12 weeks and despite all the rhetoric about "clump of cells" they more person than not person, clearly, so I'm willing to call it more murder than not murder.
If life isn't worth living for them because of future suffering, it's not worth living for us either, but you're not going around advocating murder or suicide and probably think saving someone's life is good, so I don't know how you deal with that doublethink.
>>13424>it's better to abort fetuses than birthing them in an already overpopulated world where most of their life will be suffering and problems
This is possibly the worst pro-abortion argument I have ever heard.
No I don't, most people (especially moids) don't matter and I don't feel bad for them dying>>13427
Cope with what exactly? I don't think murder is always bad (even if you think abortion is murder, and everyone who doesn't think that way is coping), if it's not overly painful (and there's no proof that abortion is painful for the fetus)>>13430
Anti abortion arguments are even worse, m-murder is bad! Unless it's animals of course
>>13491>Anti abortion arguments are even worse>Implying abortion arguments are already shit
quite the self own there, kek
>>13491>murder is bad >so to prevent this we will slowly murder them once they're born instead by forcing them to be born in shitty conditions
It is a delicate subject and I agree with OP that it shouldn't be taken lightly. I do support abortion though and don't believe life begins at conception. But I understand people who think abortion is wrong. My parents were really anti-abortion, for some people it is the political issue they are most concerned about and it was annoying how they wouldn't hear any opinion other than their own
No, it's what you chose to assume, moid
>In a rational society, abortion would be legal until birth.
Yes anon, in a rational society it would make sense to abort a child 5 minutes before birth. In a rational society you kill your children instead of caring for them.
If i was told my child would be like this 5 minutes before it was born, I would opt for abortion asap.
Complain all you want, that man’s mother will die. Underpaid caretakers who don’t have motherly love for hopeless beings like this sometimes take to abusing them since they know they are non verbal.
People with severe disabilities are in for a world of loneliness and pain once their family dies off.
I don’t really buy the “it’s just a bundle of cells/foetus” argument. It’s alive. But I hate humanity and babies especially so abortion doesn’t bother me. Mother nature seems to be fine with it.
I think it pretty much is just a bunch of goup trying ti arrange itself for the first two weeks or so. Once the basic shape forms it’s more “alive”. Either way, I see infants and children as future ugly, stupid adults making their own horrible untrained brats. I look at their ugly obnoxious parents and compare the features and imagine how many of their stupid habits they’ll pick up. so I don’t care much what happens to babies either honestly.
It may be technically alive but so is sperm, no one is telling men they can't jerk off because they're killing ~alive~ sperm. I'm pro-abortion/choice anyway but if I wasn't, I think if it has a beating heart yet is a better measure.
i think abortion is killing something, but it is a woman's right to kill something that is inside of her. obviously once you get past the second trimester it gets much much more morally uncomfortable. in truth im not sure about the whole thing myself.
>>14205>no one is telling men they can't jerk off because they're killing ~alive~ sperm
that's more to do with them being men and everything revolving around and favouring men than whether they are alive or not
What criteria are you using to decide sperm is a separate form of life?
Pick one. A pig has a sense of intelligence analogous to that of a 3-year-old human child, and we slaughter them without a second thought, so I'm going to have to respectfully dismiss the idea that there's a perfect point in the neurological development of the fetus that's cause for any sort of hard-stop on the harvest unless the fetus can survive on its own.. in which case, it becomes a baby.
Anyways, abortion is honestly just a tool used to ensure a society isn't overpopulated because once that happens, that's the end of civilization [As We Know It] the death of your culture. Although… the death of one culture doesn't necessarily guarantee the one replacing it will be any more benevolent or deserving of power..
>just rape victims
I like how you leave out victims of incest here
if someone wants an abortion that means they know they would probably be a bad parent
let women who know they'd fuck up a kids life have an abortion, it keeps less people from living shitty lives
from what i've seen other women say, having an abortion is traumatizing, and that is "consequence" enough for their irresponsibility
they don't need to be shamed more imo
as for women who treat abortions like they're a morning after pill,
i'm convinced they have some sort of mental illness that stops them from feeling bad about it/being responsible
which, again, probably means they would make terrible mothers
i never had an abortion but miscarried when i was raped as a teenager, and i felt so much guilt about being happy i miscarried i still sometimes cry thinking about it
i would have had an abortion if i didn't miscarry, and i was raped so it'd be less looked down on, but i still would have felt guilty if i had an abortion
so i think i have some empathy for women who get abortions because average woman would definitely feel guilty about it
You shouldn’t feel guilty anon. Miscarriages are natural and more common than most people realise. It’s ok to feel relief that the situation resolved itself but it’s not your fault it happened. Just a fluke it happened then.
i know this logically and only feel that way when i'm already in a really low place and think about it
i don't feel guilty on a logical level, just in an uncontrollable feeling type of way if that makes sense?
it's probably a motherly instinct thing
is it me or there's a weird amount of young men/teens in anti-abortion rallies? I've seen a few pictures of just plain ol' articles with them in one.
a lot of them seem weirdly gleeful or smug.
Im against it. Even in cases of rape
Please no hate, I dont blame women who abort because of rape. They are in a horrible place. I do get why they would do that, not entirely because im not in their place, but I understand a little
Its only because I consider the foetus to be a child from the very point of conception. So yes in my mind its a different body than its mother and a child shouldnt get killed because of his fathers crime for exemple.
I think we should invest in better following women who dont want their child, in a better adoption system, in better health care, and in actual justice, because abortion doesnt free women from what they suffered (they still get depressed, sometimes its even worse after the abortion). I feel like abortion is one more way to indirectly strip women from something that is a part of their psychology in advantage of some men too.
If we had a different view on rape, on women sexuality, on maternity, on being a single mother, if justice was really there for women, maybe just maybe women would be able to embrace maternity without feeling less free and abused etc. Maternity shouldnt be a burden but it actually is because we made it that way.
Nothing is actually made to help pregnant women. Its all short term, non efficient solutions. Nothing is there to help women who dont want their pregnancy. Worse than that we use women wombs to carry other people babies.
Everything about pregnancy and maternity nowadays is made against female nature and maternity. Most women build a strong connection to their chidlren.
BUT i forgot to mention men should have no voice in that
They only care about it out of self interest, which means we cant let them speak on matters that mainly concern women.
They have a fetish for pregnancy, for maternity, and they want abortion only when its in their own advantage.
Women need to realize by themselves and for themselves that we are being lied to about whats good for us.
>>15446>abortion doesnt free women from what they suffered
It frees them from their body drastically changing against their will. It frees them from going through the traumatic experience of giving birth, one of the most physically painful things a human being can go through. Men never think about the physical changes that women have to suffer during pregnancy. Imagine your body changing against your will. It's fucking body horror.
Yeah I get it a little more now. But it cant really change my mind on it because I still see the life beneath that. If babies were just parasites to me Id completely agree.
So yeah Its an opinion I respect without sharing.
Well, babies are parasites to me. If I ever get raped that thing is getting killed and I'll be happy about it. :)
life is retarded and moronic babies should be aborted
Babies aren't even cute imo. They're gross-looking, shit their pants, and constantly scream.
i think abortions should happen whenever, if the pregnant girl/woman wants one.
There's no real ethical argument against killing an infant even AFTER it has been born, when we're already okay with slaughtering pigs.
Any women who doesn't immediately abort a rapist's baby as soon as she's able is disgusting. Why would you allow a rapist to win like that? He took your safety and dignity, and now you're going to allow his shitty genes to propagate? No. You kill that shitty little rapist baby and you don't allow him to win.
ppl should get red robin gift cards everytime they get an abortion
He raped her yet SHE is disgusting? Your logic is so backwards
Ignore it. Clear rage bait is obvious.
do you seriously expect the baby of a mother that "isn't ready" to turn out well? The amount of abused children that come from mothers who did not want their baby is astonishing.
Always remember that "pro-lifers" are killing women
Until the baby is actually born, then it can starve in the street for all our government cares
Because the morality argument is just pretense
It really is just about taking rights away from women at the end of the day
I'm uncomfortable with abortion and how flippant some women are about getting them. However, I don't think the government should be able tk have that much control over a woman's reproductive rights. I also think a lot of women who get abortions and brag and make jokes about it would've been awful mothers and made the right choice in avoiding a neglectful/abusive situation for the child.
I think modern people treat sex way too casually for how important of an act it is. Which is why I'm pro life. The sides will never agree.
True. No matter how many people are anti-choice because they believe in "good reasons" it doesn't change the fact that outlawing and criminalizing abortion does not and will never help either side. People like >>15584
are either malicious or completely short sighted because making miscarriages a felony isn't going to alleviate hookup culture.
Even if you are "pro-life" because you believe in souls or whatever, the fact that real-world implementation of abortion only ruins women's lives, will never change. Because the people you vote for don't care about your "nuanced" opinions no matter how they advertise their politics. In the end it's always those who want to control women and strip their rights one by one who win and prevail.
If you still blindly parrot "Pro-life! Pro-life!" despite being shown the consequences, you're either malicious, as I said, or too stupid to have an opinion on the subject.
Maybe people should be more vocal about that kind of stuff instead of just saying my body my choice for the millionth time.
Maybe you should do some research instead of basing your opinion on a catchy slogan made for rallies and protests not for debates and discussions
do you think children should be punishments?
I think people should deal with the consequences of life.>>15587
I don't care about the research. Abortion bad.
Coming into existence is never a choice, and it is sheer insanity that anyone is born at all. Abortion cannot be anything but good for rectifying at least some of this injustice.
The fact that you think children are just "consequences" says a lot about you.
Anti-choice arguments often lack any nuance or realism.
Consequence as in have sex acquire baby. Obviously they are a miracle of life and should be cherished, even if not by their biological parents.
It's funny because anti-choicers are often the ones calling pro-choicers unrealistic. The projection kek
>>15593>I don't care about the research. Abortion bad.
There we go.
It's really hard to tell who's a moid and who's a retard on here
Someone who does not exist cannot be denied anything and cannot feel deprived because they do not exist. However, the situation where they do exist and decide to kill themselves first requires them to go through immense suffering. The position you espouse comes off incredibly heartless and moidlike.
i've heard people say that if you abort a rapist's baby you actually allow the rapist to win because he did a crime and you erased all the evidence. not my opinion but maybe interesting for some of you
honestly though, i don't understand why we have this discussion. i've been sexually active for almost 8 years. the only thing i use to avoid pregnancy are condoms, that's it. i've never been pregnant and never had to abort a baby. this discussion isn't about morals (casual sex being good or bad), because casual sex doesn't mean you are gonna get pregnant.
i'm pro life, because if i wanna get pregnant, i remove the condom, if i don't wanna get pregnant, i use a condom. i chose to get pregnant or not. i don't understand how people can say pregnancy happened to them or they didn't chose to be pregnant, like, what, how? if you have unprotected sex, you chose to have a baby. i don't understand how we even have to discuss this obvious shit.
i do agree with abortion when the life of the mother is in danger or extreme situations like rape, but those shouldn't be a reason for dumb people to also claim they have the right to abort their baby after they chose to have unprotected sex. that doesn't make sense, and i think you are sick in the head.
One day you might be stealthed by a man you thought you trusted or your contraceptive will malfunction. It's not a rare thing and it may happen to anyone. Allowing abortion hurts no one, literally no one, not a single person who is living, walking, or crawling on this world. If you think people use an invasive procedure as their primary form of contraceptive and not a last resort you're incredibly naive.
>i do agree with abortion when the life of the mother is in danger or extreme situations like rape, but those shouldn't be a reason for dumb people to also claim they have the right to abort their baby
In your head this looks fair but the real-life implementation of those laws will not reflect your ideals. Those exceptions will not be reasons for "dumb people" to use to cheat their way into an abortion, on the contrary it will be a way for clinics to cheat their "legally valid" clients into denying them abortions. And how will you implement this "prove you were raped" system? Surely you don't think the gentle and loving legal system you live in will immediately look at a traumatized woman, examine her and rush her to surgery right away? No, what happens realistically is that the woman has to report the perpetrator which is difficult enough, hope her proof of innocence is enough, wait for the policemen to settle their bureaucracy, on an on.. all the while going through psychological torment, carrying a rapist's parasite, enduring the infringement of her liberties and rights as a human being.
You people give 0 thought to the logistics and the real-world implementation of the laws you are proposing. Once again I have to ask, are you malicious or stupid?
People can twist things either way to suit their own agenda. The woman should do whatever is right for her and forget about what it means to anyone else.
For you know, you could have avoided pregnancy all these years because you are unable to have children.
rape conviction rate is fucking pitiful anyway and you still would have to prove the conception occurred due to rape. women should do whatever is right for their desires and situation.
That is the most retarded thing I've ever heard.
Why do you view life as a punishment? Life is good despite its downsides. You should look at having kids as an opportunity to share how good your life is with someone rather than punishing them. When I find a nice meme or succeed in something I naturally wanna share it with someone I love or like, so I wanna have a good life and share it with my kids.>>15593>>15584
I agree, I do not know how I would respond to rape victim cases or some extreme diseases, but otherwise most people who get abortion only wanna sleep around and have fun without doing much else (like some nona said in the childless thread). Cannot have your cake and eat it too ykno. When people look at sex as some fun to be had then obviously this is what happens. And women end up paying for hookup culture and despite that some women still promote it, idgi
>>15752>You should look at having kids as an opportunity to share how good your life is with someone rather than punishing them.
For the VAST majority of women life is painful 99% of the time. Why would you want to share that with anyone.
True this is one thing I never understood is why people are ok with abortion but once the baby is out of the body it becomes not ok to kill them. Like you gave birth to a retard baby and because your dr didn't flag it now you have to raise it sorry. As if historically there isn't precedent for throwing such children off of a cliff.
Life is "miserable" for everyone nona, and always has been. There have always been widespread and systematic problems. Our age sucks thats true but people in the past had to worry about a lot more, bandit raids, famines, natural disasters, epidemics due to bad hygene (ones with actually high death rates). And people still had kids then. Obviously if you center your life on having as much pleasure as possible then you will be miserable, but its mostly just a pov thing.
A lot of people secretly support the murder of disabled babies, they only refrain out of fear of the law and social consequences. That's why there are so many stories of women drowning babies or tossing them out of windows.
Victims of rape and incest should always have access to it.
If the fetus is disabled mentally or physically, it should be allowed.
Overall, I'm torn on the issue. I want the choice to be available, but the kinds of women who treat it like no different than taking Plan B or birth control are repulsive. That "tee hee, off to get my 3rd abortion~" mindset makes me want to be pro life purely out of spite.
The world would be better if women were actually taught how to be responsible and how to stand up for themselves when a man tries to insist they not use protection. Ready access to abortions enables irresponsibility in young women.
What baffles me the most about the argument from a conservative perspective is that most of the women getting abortions are poor minorites. Shouldn't they be in support of having less of them around?
>>15765>What baffles me the most about the argument from a conservative perspective is that most of the women getting abortions are poor minorites. Shouldn't they be in support of having less of them around?
How much CNN do you watch??
You're average conservaturd boomer doesn't want to kill all niggers or hate minorities, this is niche mostly online right wing NRX extremism, not conservatism >That "tee hee, off to get my 3rd abortion~" mindset makes me want to be pro life purely out of spite.
Very few women are like this and no no such culture is thriving or growing at any significance. This is just incredibly hyperbolic and ironically conservative propaganda made to make you feel in such a way, lol. I can recognize this even and I'm pro life
>>15765>tee hee, off to get my 3rd abortion~
For fuck's sake, stop browsing r9k. No woman is like this.
>>15765>That "tee hee, off to get my 3rd abortion~" mindset makes me want to be pro life purely out of spite
It's not just you, pro life movement as a whole is motivated out of spite. These folks think that having an unwanted child is a punishment for irresponsible women. In the end of the day, no one cares for what actually happens to these children, it's pretty ironic.
abortion is a human (female) right :)
In high school I knew a guy who was your typical brainwashed right winger teen (he only watched feminist get rekt compilations) and I remember i got to talk to him in the context of an english class and the subject of abortions was brought up and he said that he wished abortions were illegal because it kills too many white babies
im scared what he has become now if this was the stuff he'd say in high school
Wow usually I see right wingers agree with abortions because non-whites are supposedly the ones who do it the most.